Status and Support

[panyasan]

Sorry! Because you mentioned it and sounded frustrated I thought you still were working on that story.

[putaro]

... it's rather short (under 6000 words) ...

Only 6000 words? That's a tenth of a novel, not underachieving!

[WarpGirl]

I am frustrated that I haven't posted TnT for all of the dear people here who have supported me! I feel CRAZY GUILTY. It's like I'm cheating on Triax or something. But I'm so completely captivated with my other project right now I'm stuck!

I really have tried to work on May We... but the "other voices" are too distracting, and T'Pol refuses to co-operate with me.

[putaro]

Blah - have you ever had what you wanted to write in your head but when you get written out it's just kind of flat? I guess the only thing to do is to pour it all out and then go back through and start editing. There must be a pony in here somewhere!

[Alelou]

Do you have enough conflict going on? If the plot's there, then yeah, it's probably just a matter of revising.

Sometimes switching to a different POV helps when something's coming out flat.

[putaro]

I think there's an interesting difference between visual storytelling and written storytelling. In movies and TV explosions, loud noises and starships swooping around are somewhat interesting all by themselves, whereas written descriptions need something else to keep the reader engaged.

It may just be me as well. I'm longing to work on my story but I've also been working on a number of other "creative" endeavors that have been using up my short supply of imagination.

[Kotik]

Do you have enough conflict going on? If the plot's there, then yeah, it's probably just a matter of revising.

This one made me groan a bit. Why is it that everyone thinks that you have to throw 'enough conflict' in it and it'll work automagically? I think every author has to find his/her own style. Bluetigers story are very low on conflict, yet they are everything but uninteresting. If I had to name the best balanced one, I'd nominate Transwarp's "Convicted". It has conflict written all over it, what with the Romulan war and everything, yet it also has chapters or half-chapters, which are completely free of conflict or angst to create a balance. Unbalanced stories, which whack their characters with the tragedy stick endlessly are not much better than stories full of uninteresting fluff.

I think that the "rule" no conflict=flat is a major pitfall. We have a whole truckload of stories in the archive and over at HoT, which have milked the angst and conflict to a point where the "happy end" in the last two paragraphs of the epilog couldn't make up for the pain of having read through the 78 chapters of angst and tragedy beforehand. Such stories are unbalanced and some of those carry the name tag of rather well-known authors.

Of course our definition of "conflict" might differ, but I think the questions should be "Is there enough balance"?

[putaro]

Well, conflict is why you read. Your definition of conflict may not be the same as an English teacher's definition of conflict, though.

As I was taught, there's three basic forms of conflict:

Man vs Man
Man vs Nature
Man vs Himself

Conflict doesn't have to mean fighting - it means overcoming something. So, a long story where everything just happens (I got up in the morning, brushed my teeth, ate some breakfast, walked out the door, went down the street, bought some coffee, got on the train, went to work, worked all morning, had some lunch, worked all afternoon, came home, watched some TV, went to bed) isn't very interesting. We're reading to see the protagonists overcome something, or be surprised by something, or something funny happened.

Conflict doesn't require angst or even major disagreement between the characters.

I took a quick look at one of Bluetiger's stories, "Logic of Trees" for illustration.

Conflicts:

Man vs Man - Trip wants his daughter to not climb the tree
Man vs Man - Charles Tucker uses a snake to scare his sister
Man vs Nature - T'Pol is having difficulties with her pregnancy and then the baby is sick after being born

So, Kotik, you're correct that stories don't need to be full of angsty stuff or big arguments. Some may take that as the definition of conflict, but I would say that that is incorrect from the literary analysis point of view. However, the overcoming of obstacles is a major part of a plot and without that stories can be pretty boring.

[Kotik]

I see that there is a definitive difference in how we define conflict. I think the "overcoming obstacles" is something we have to do everyday. The difference however is, how many obstacles are there to begin with? Some stories never let their protagonists catch a break and that breaks the story. If one writes 20 chapters of uninterrupted one-problem-after-the-other, the story ends up as uninteresting as one full of mary-sue style fluff.

Your story (if we are talking about "5 year mission) is a classical example. It milked the whole relationship angst theme for about four chapters too long, but TnT finally got their break with the date dirt-side. Yet some, I think it even was Alelou, commented "don't let it go too well" as the very first reaction. As I remember, you pretty much ignored that advice and let it go relatively fine and that did a lot to re-balance your story. I think the odd fluffy or at least trouble-free chapter is needed to balance out the perpetual problems. Conflict for the sake of conflict doesn't help much.

[Alelou]

I think there's an interesting difference between visual storytelling and written storytelling. In movies and TV explosions, loud noises and starships swooping around are somewhat interesting all by themselves, whereas written descriptions need something else to keep the reader engaged.

That's true. Even in TV, it's more interesting if the characters are struggling in their own subset of the chaos to survive/communicate/save each other/struggle to figure out what's going on/etc. This is when red shirts typically die, too, the poor dears, or our heroes suffer injuries that leave us in suspense for them. The other option is to really focus on the suspenseful overall military strategy, if your characters have access to that overall view.

Yes, Kotik, you can certainly have a chapter or half-chapter without a lot of conflict -- especially the pause that refreshes after it's been coming hot and heavy. But if you're anywhere but the denouement and there's nothing building towards the climax -- no rising action -- that sometimes can create the sense of flatness Putaro mentioned. And that is also a prime time for readers to wander off.

Putaro, Transwarp and Rigil Kent are both excellent with space battles if you are looking for role models.

[Kotik]

Putaro, Transwarp and Rigil Kent are both excellent with space battles if you are looking for role models.

Both are military men, who've seen action IIRC, so their battles appear very real. They also thend to add a lot more depth to the MACO's due to their real life battle experience, so reading their stuff is a must if you want to include space battles

[putaro]

I see that there is a definitive difference in how we define conflict.

Well, it's not my definition, it's a fairly standard definition of plot. Mind you, I'm pulling this out of my recollection of high school English which was close to 30 years ago and I didn't enjoy it much at the time.

I think the "overcoming obstacles" is something we have to do everyday. The difference however is, how many obstacles are there to begin with? Some stories never let their protagonists catch a break and that breaks the story. If one writes 20 chapters of uninterrupted one-problem-after-the-other, the story ends up as uninteresting as one full of mary-sue style fluff.

Quite true. There's no simple formula - if there was, everyone would write a good story .

Your story (if we are talking about "5 year mission) is a classical example. It milked the whole relationship angst theme for about four chapters too long, but TnT finally got their break with the date dirt-side.

Well, that's pacing too. There were a couple of chapters that I might excise if I were publishing as a whole, but I wrote myself into a corner that needed fixing a couple of times and since the chapter that wrote me into a corner was already published I couldn't just go back and yank it as I might if I were publishing it as one big book.

Yet some, I think it even was Alelou, commented "don't let it go too well" as the very first reaction. As I remember, you pretty much ignored that advice and let it go relatively fine and that did a lot to re-balance your story.

I did want them to have a nice date and I didn't want them to have a silly fight or anything or get kidnapped but it was a little too smooth in the first draft. There were a couple of scenarios that involved T'Pol's hat blowing off and Trip trying to retrieve it but that was just too silly. I finally decided on the head fake with the aliens that appeared to be kidnappers at first since in ENT it ALWAYS seemed that whenever anyone was having a nice, simple shore leave that someone would get kidnapped and I felt that spiced up the chapter enough. I also edited out a bunch of food descriptions that seemed a lot more fun when I was first writing.

Maybe I should add some more cowbell

[Alelou]

Kotik, Putaro's story is far from done (as his beta, I am privileged to know that). "Don't let it go too well" doesn't mean inject pointless angst in every chapter. It does mean don't lose ALL the tension in the primary relationship halfway through your story. We've all read fanfic that becomes unbearably dull once our heroes are together, suddenly becoming a tediously sweet fantasy of playing house. There's a reason "boy gets girl" is a typical plot, rather than "boy lives in wedded bliss with girl for a lifetime."

I happen to think realistic relationships, especially between these two, can still contain plenty of zest. I don't know of any marriages that never hit a bump in the road. Men and women are different to begin with, and here you have two different sets of cultural expectations to cope with.

The other option, obviously, is to ensure there's plenty of external conflict for our heroes to cope with, and Putaro will definitely have that. But those of us who mostly read this stuff for the central relationship (raises hand) don't want THAT aspect of it to get dull if it can possibly be avoided.

[WarpGirl]

Conflict can be as simple as Trip wanting a slice of pie, or as complicated Tolaris coming back. It doesn't neccessarily entail a couple constantly hurting each other either deliberately or inadvertantly. I can agree that there are some authors that do tend to tip the scales to TnT hurting each other a little too far for my taste.

Then again, if anyone can honestly say they've been in a relationship where they have never said or done something to hurt the other person, or been hurt themselves, I want the secret. I can't even manage a civil converstation with one of my sisters.

In reality, couples do disagree and yes, at times hurt each other. There's nothing wrong with writing it. What get to me is when an author makes an entire story about a major arguement and they just keep stupidly hurting each other until the end and somehow it all gets cleared up in the last paragraph.

[Asso]

It is odd, not to say whimsical, this idea that the conflict - whichever way this term can be understood - should form the backbone of a story.
It may be or may not be there.
Enough that the story is nice.
Is it nice what contains a conflict?
Is it nice what doesn't contain it?
Or, more simply, it's nice what gets enjoyed?
Or what - in ways that not always can be defined - is nice in itself?