Status and Support

[WarpGirl]

Has anyone seen The Sound Of Music? It's got to be one of the most wholesome, cheerful, uplifting stories ever put on paper, stage, or screen. It's rife with conflict.

1. Maria vs the rules of the Abby

2. The Children vs Maria

3. Maria vs The Captain

4. Maria vs Maria (service to God as a Nun or love of family and a man)

5. The Children vs The Captain

6. The Captain vs The Barroness (although she was very classy considering she lost him to an almost Nun)

7. The Captain vs Max ("My children do not sing in public")

8. The Nazis vs The Von Trapp Family Singers

9. Liesl vs Rolf

I defy anyone to say that such a plot does not have enough conflict or has lots of uneccessary agnst. I mean come on, why does conflict have to be a dirty word? Why does "zest" have to be summed up by a lot of confrontation is a relationship? Why isn't there room for a little bit of everything. Real life isn't all joy, and it isn't all pain and suffering. To do life justice in a story it has to encompass both.

[panyasan]

A very interesting conversation. Like being said, conflicts comes in all kind of forms. For me, there is a difference between angst and conflict. War can be a conflict, but if TnT are a couple trying to cope with being a couple and fighting the war, that's conflict, I don't see it as much as angst.

Angst is more about emotional tension between people/couples (TnT in this case). It can work out very well in a story. However, for me I draw the line at he moment angst become unrealistic or simple a tool to see TnT hurt each other. With one story I became so annoyed with TnT I actually wanted them to split up and stopped reading the whole thing! TnT didn't talk with each other and Trip spend all his time with a perfect twin of T'Pol, doing skin to skin neuropressure with her and didn't spent one second with T'Pol. A true recipe of ruining or ending your relationship, if you asked me.

I wanted to post this and then I saw WG's post. I totally agree. I also realized I just wrote a chapter full of angst! But the chapter is called "Rokel" - the Vulcan word for "living hope". The whole story is about people trying to do the right thing in a very grim surroundings. Hope people like it.

Blah - have you ever had what you wanted to write in your head but when you get written out it's just kind of flat? I guess the only thing to do is to pour it all out and then go back through and start editing. There must be a pony in here somewhere!

Yes, a lot of times I feel disappointed because I have the perfect scene in my mind and I don't seem to find the words that could express what I have in head.

Like you said: the best solution is to take a break and rewrite, rewrite, rewrite or... delete the scene and try all over again. If you have something special in mind, it will come out one way or the other.

[Transwarp]

I tend to agree that good stories have conflict, because that's what my personal experience supports. However, my definition of the term 'conflict' is very, VERY broad. Conflict, in writing terms, does not necessarily mean characters are being killed and tortured. It just means a character wants or needs something and must overcome one or more obstacles to get it. Example: Trip wants to surprise T'pol with an anniversery gift, but isn't sure what to get her. Oh, the angst!!

But rest assured, just having conflict in the story does NOT a good story make. There are many, many facets to the art of writing (and it IS an art, not a science).

[WarpGirl]

I know I'll be waiting to review your new chapter Panyasan

Here's another good example: T'Pol trying to bake a pecan pie: que the hijinks!

There's no rule that says, that "zest" in a realtionship automatically means discord either. You can have a great deal of sparks and "zest" just by conversation. I love writing characters who tease each other and amuse each other, and simply enjoy each other's company. How is that boring?

[Alelou]

Teasing and bickering can count as conflict. Or "zest," as WG is so fond of quoting.

Part of the appeal of Trip and T'Pol is the way they bicker. But that just looks infantile if they don't actually have something to truly disagree about. Yes, it can be minor. Maybe he's just trying to get her to see a movie, but there's got to be a genuine and plausible warring motivation on each side.

To me gratuitous angst and needless conflict can be defined by certain developments in Kristen Elizabeth's unfinished opus over at ff.net. She seems to have abandoned it now. She can write extremely well, and some readers clearly loved the endless complications, but I often felt very jerked around. Amnesia! Agonized but silent withdrawal from the object of one's affection! Failure by responsible parties to remit key information at key moments! Ay yi yi... Her response to me: yes, I know, but why not? Readers love this stuff and after all this is just fanfic. She claimed her real fic would not be like that.

But don't we deserve honest drama instead of manipulative soap, especially from someone clearly so capable? And how can you write like that for one audience and then turn it off for a 'real' audience?

Of course, I did keep reading, even though I was often offended by it, and I would probably pick it up again if she ever shows up again. To her credit, it was never dull.

[WarpGirl]

Disagreements are valuable and I'm not saying that I dislike them. Heck I'm game for a knock-down-drag-out arguement now and again. But they're not neccessary for every story. You're one of the most talented authors I know Alelou, no doubt about that. Your experience and skill has probably taught many an aspiring writer (including myself) but you wrote a story (I honestly don't remember the title) that I was really enjoying until T'Pol said something so downright hateful that I just sat there like this... for about ten minutes. Then Trip said something even more hateful! I thought I was seeing things, but I wasn't.

Now, as I said before I don't need perfect. You're right, perfect is boring but I disagree that in order to keep a romantic relationship realistic and interesting in a multi-chapter story that contention is a neccessary ingredient. Now If an author writes 100 stories with a couple in a perpetual honeymoon yes that is annoying.

[panyasan]

But don't we deserve honest drama instead of manipulative soap, especially from someone clearly so capable?

I think you just summed up my beef with some stories. Honestly, I can tolerate honest drama as long I don't feel manipulated. (Of course my treshold me be different than others, due to our personal situation). Manipulation has nothing to do with the fine art of writing, no matter how good someone can write.

I just finished a new chapter! Now I only have to found out what that ... chamber is called they put Trip in after he was wounded in *the_abomination*, sent it to my beta and hope people will like it.....

[Alelou]

Hyperbaric chamber, I think. We have those today, to deliver oxygen at high pressure. (Convenient how the imaging chamber and the hyperbaric chamber are one and the same...)

WG, I'm well aware that I often exceed some people's angst limitation. People's tolerance varies. Hell, even mine has evolved over time. I don't think I could write the Commander Tucker series again. Poor Trip and T'Pol, what misery! However, I had to create a whole different set of facts for them in the Missing Scenes to avoid feeling that it was still what was 'true' for their characters. Most especially, I had to have Trip offer marriage before she married Koss. To me, that changed the equation a whole lot going forward. In essence, he was a braver man the second time around, and that made all the difference.

[WarpGirl]

I just finished a new chapter! Now I only have to found out what that ... chamber is called they put Trip in after he was wounded in *the_abomination*, sent it to my beta and hope people will like it.....

Oooh I will, I will!

Alelou I meant no offense, truly. As I said, I have appreciated and learned from your talent for a long time.

[Alelou]

Oh, not to worry. As I said, I know that's my reputation, and I'm sure it's somewhat deserved.

[WarpGirl]

This might sound odd but angst is not the word I'd use to describe how I see your reputation. I'd say more... Authoriative. Don't ask me why but if we were to free-associate author's names with words that's the word I'd choose for you.

[Alelou]

Ah, that's sweet. Thank you.

[putaro]

But don't we deserve honest drama instead of manipulative soap, especially from someone clearly so capable?

I think so! And I think there's lots of room to explore real differences between TnT. After all, they're from two entirely different cultures and species. There's everything from the domestic (on Vulcan we do not eat with our fingers stuff) to political (T'Pol the newly awakened pacifist vs Trip the somewhat militant) to technical and more. Underlie that with real love and affection between them and I think you've got something.

[Kotik]

Oh, not to worry. As I said, I know that's my reputation, and I'm sure it's somewhat deserved.

"Deserved" is probably not the right word. It might sound weird, but I think the "Commander Tucker" series is something that you're stuck with. It's one of the stories, which IMHO took the angst beyond what would be considered authentic. It's one of the stories I mentioned earlier, where the characters are put through the emotional wringer - and the reader by proxy, too - and then *tadaa* last chapter comes the happy end and nobody believes it.
I'm known to be the person with the lowest angst threshold in recorded history, yet I made it through your "Missing Scenes" of season four without suffering bodily or mental harm, even though I think the overall angst level wasn't that much lower, but it stayed in the 'believable' range for two reasons: First you didn't have to contrive some reasons to keep them apart - the series writers had done that already - and most importantly, you managed to balance it way better with small doses of feel-good injected at the right moments. I would agree with your assessment that your work evolved somewhat.

If I had to give you a reputation, I'd say you're one of the braver writers. You dare to touch topics that are bound to offend people. I remember a particular story ending that left a lot of your male readers rather disgruntled. Most lesser writers would not have dared to write that in the first place. I think you're in good company in that regard with authors like Distracted. Not too many dare touching tricky and potentially offending topics and make them work in a story.

[Alelou]

Well thanks, Kotik. I don't know how much bravery is required to write fanfic. It's not like anyone can hassle my kid about his mother's terrible fiction (yet). Most of you don't even know my real name. I do have a fairly thick skin when it comes to people's reactions, though.

I don't mind being stuck with the Commander Tucker series. I wouldn't write it today, but I'm still okay with it. (Though my favorite entry is the most lighthearted one -- Commander Tucker Suffers from Intrusive Daydreams.) I know the angst is too much for a lot of people (especially you!). The criticism I accept most for it is that Trip is too much of a doormat in it. However, I think that also reflects what we saw on the show. Trip put up with crap long past the time most men would have cut and run. Arguably, by extending that trend I made him far too pathetic. Personally I still think he ultimately comes out okay, but I also think women tend to like that series better than men do.