Rajin & Similitude

[Aquarius]

Minor quibble, but I don't believe a Vulcan woman becomes her husband's 'property' unless she declares the Kalifee.

No?

I understood that she was regardless. In many (if not all) human cultures, marriage at least began as the sale of the bride to the man marrying her. Dowries and all that. And this seems to be especially true in arranged marriages.

Is it true that Vulcan would be an exception?

[Alelou]

Why would T'Pau ask if it's not relevant? It wouldn't be very logical.

That's how I read that dialogue, anyway.

[Aquarius]

I'll have to take a look at the transcript, but I just always took that as "You're stuck, honey, if he wins."

[Asso]

T'PAU: What they are about to see comes down from the time of the beginning, without change. This is the Vulcan heart. This is the Vulcan soul. This is our way. Kah-if-farr.
(Spock is about to strike the gong again, when T'Pring intervenes.)
T'PRING: Kal-if-fee!
KIRK: What is it? What happened?
T'PAU: She chooses the challenge.
MCCOY: (pointing at T'Pau's bodyguard) With him?
T'PAU: He acts only if cowardice is seen. She will choose her champion.
KIRK: Spock?
T'PAU: Do not attempt to speak with him, Kirk. He is deep in the plak-tow, the blood fever. He will not speak with thee again until he has passed through what is to come. If thee wishes to depart, thee may leave now.
KIRK: We'll stay.
T'PAU: Spock chose his friends well.
MCCOY: Ma'am, I don't understand. Are you trying to say that she rejected him? That she doesn't want him?
T'PAU: He will have to fight for her. It is her right. T'Pring, thee has chosen the kal-if-fee, the challenge. Thee are prepared to become the property of the victor?
T'PRING: I am prepared.


Splendid.
Now I have to think how this "idiotic" thing (Forgive me, but can you really think that a developed society can be like this?) can be translated into some nice story about T'Pol and Trip.

[Aquarius]

I just found a generic version of the ceremony here: http://www.stogeek.com/wiki/Vulcan_Rituals_and_Ceremonies

I don't find anything that says she's not property if she just goes through with it without the challenge, and the fact that this is her only shot at a divorce short of him cutting her loose of his own accord suggests to me that she is property, challenge or no.

[Asso]

Fearsome, isn't it?
Yes, I think T'Pol has to do something, as for this.

[Aquarius]

Now I'm not jumping on the "I hate pon farr" bandwagon, Asso! I see pon farr as a function of biology, where as the kun-ut kalli-fi is the ancient practice of selling you daughter...like any other arranged marriage I've ever heard of.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

P.S. LOL. T'Pau needs to work on her ancient Vulcan. It should be "Thou art prepared...?"

Well, even after a hundred years or so, she must still be on a learning curve... Her younger self (Kara Zediker) didn't speak like that at all.

[Alelou]

I just found a generic version of the ceremony here: http://www.stogeek.com/wiki/Vulcan_Rituals_and_Ceremonies

I don't find anything that says she's not property if she just goes through with it without the challenge, and the fact that this is her only shot at a divorce short of him cutting her loose of his own accord suggests to me that she is property, challenge or no.

Well, that's not exactly canon, is it? Probably some fangirl wrote it based on Amok Time. If it is canon, Koss and T'Pol are obviously missing out on the pon farr part.

[Asso]

Now I'm not jumping on the "I hate pon farr" bandwagon, Asso! I see pon farr as a function of biology, where as the kun-ut kalli-fi is the ancient practice of selling you daughter...like any other arranged marriage I've ever heard of.

You know what I think of this so said "function of biology". Frankly I think that when Authors wrote this, their brain was lost, I don't know where.
Anyway...
It's strange, and I don't understand.
I found always Kal-if-fee sexist and upsetting.
Now it seems to me that women find it almost justifiable.
Am I out of real world?

[Aquarius]

I just found a generic version of the ceremony here: http://www.stogeek.com/wiki/Vulcan_Rituals_and_Ceremonies

I don't find anything that says she's not property if she just goes through with it without the challenge, and the fact that this is her only shot at a divorce short of him cutting her loose of his own accord suggests to me that she is property, challenge or no.

Well, that's not exactly canon, is it? Probably some fangirl wrote it based on Amok Time. If it is canon, Koss and T'Pol are obviously missing out on the pon farr part.

Ture, but likewise there's nothing in canon that says the bride isn't the property of the male she's bonded to either way, and in the "pom farr thread", it seemed everyone reached the consensus that this was the bride's one shot at a divorce.

[Alelou]

It's not the one shot at divorce, it's the one shot at not getting married to the guy you're betrothed to. I guess Vulcan guys don't have any options at all except perhaps not to show up in the first place.

Have we ever heard of divorce among Vulcans at all? I can't think of a single reference until Enterprise, but T'Pol doesn't seem to consider it anything really beyond the pale.

What is it that women are favoring here, Asso? Pon farr? Hell no, but it's there in canon, so you have to deal with it if you're going to be canon-friendly. Kalifee is extremely barbaric. I can't believe a logical society has such a thing. Again, canon.

Off to watch Castle. Probably going to be canceled, sigh. It was finally really good last week.

[WarpGirl]

Kal'i'fee isn't anymore sexist to Vulcans, then engagement rings are to us. I mean let's face it an engagement ring is a modern "bride gift." Something to prove a man can pay for his bride. Yes we've adapted it to be a romantic gesture of love and devotion, but when it comes down to it as a society the more expensive or grandious the ring is the "better" the man is that provides it. Kal'i'fee is NOT the actual marriage. Kal'i'fee is the challenge of a marriage! Women have it pretty good if you think about it. Not only do they have an option of getting out of the marriage, but they don't have to risk life-and-limb to do it. Men have a similiar option where women fight for them, although very rare. But those fights are not to the death. Women are actually protected and valued more than men when it comes to marriage.

Besides T'Pol isn't upset about an arranged marriage. She's upset she must go through with it because by this time she loves Trip. I'm willing to bet the first time she broke things off she fully expected her family to arrange another match that was more conducive to her time table. I think that by trashing this whole marriage and Koss, people degrade the wonderful sacrifices both Trip and T'Pol made, for family and the love they have for each other.

[Aquarius]

Kal'i'fee isn't anymore sexist to Vulcans, then engagement rings are to us. I mean let's face it an engagement ring is a modern "bride gift." Something to prove a man can pay for his bride. Yes we've adapted it to be a romantic gesture of love and devotion, but when it comes down to it as a society the more expensive or grandious the ring is the "better" the man is that provides it.

Right, which is one of the reasons I doubt I'd ever have one if I got engaged.

T'Pol isn't "upset about an arranged marriage" per se. Yes, by "Home" it's gotten to be about much more than that. But way back in Season One, when she told Koss and his family to take a hike, it was very much about living life on her own terms, vs. doing what her family and Koss's family and Vulcan society expects. They threatened her, by saying they'd cancel the wedding altogether if she didn't come home like right now--funny, considering how badly they supposedly wanted this. However, it would seem to me that this might be one of her first inklings that the custom of arranged marriage may not be all it's cracked up to be. By the time she brought home her boyfriend from the wrong side of the galactic tracks, she'd obviously thought they'd written her off, but here they come with this blackmail, forcing her into something that she'd stopped wanting--hell, it's questionable that she even wanted it in the first place--and costing her what she did want. So I could see a reasonable case being made for her being bitter about arranged marriage there, since it was used so artfully against her.

[WarpGirl]

OH you just made my laugh Aquarius. I always say the only thing I need from a proposal is a "post it" note on a box of Keebler Grasshopper Cookies. Oh my grandmother was furious when I said this. So much so, that she said she wouldn't come to my wedding if I didn't have a ring! Hey I love jewelery most woman do, but I don't need a man to go into debt to put a ring on my finger, to prove he loves or is worthy of me.

And I totally agree that T'Pol HATES this marriage to Koss! I think that by this point she's chosen Trip, and in her mind she's his and he's hers. But that's what makes BOTH of their actions during this so lovely to me. They're both acting on pure uncontitional love. Whatever the circumstances of Koss, his family, or Vulcan society this is a huge gesture of love for Trip and T'Pol. It should be admired not trashed.