Trip's Mistakes

[WarpGirl]

That's not the issue Silverbullet we Acknowledge that the Vissians were wrong. BUT it was NOT Trip's place to do something about it and put an ENTIRE two ships of people at risk for someone that was not in ANY danger at all!

[Silverbullet]

Warpgirl, Enterprise was not in any danger. the vissens didn't attack even after Trip befriended Charles. Nor after Charles comittted Suicide. they wre peaceful and did Understand Trip's motives even if they didn't agree with them.

As I say, go back watch the Episode. disregard everything but the third Sex. watch it. See the intelligence there. the longing to learn. See what it had hopes for. charles wanted to go mountain climbing and do things that were denied it simply because the other sexes treated like a thing rather than a being with rights.

The Cognitor was a very sympathetic character because it was intelligent, very intelligent and longed to be recognized as a person.

You are very intelligent. How would you like to be looked upon as a usefull object but not as a person with intelligence, rights, hopes, dreams. Denied the right to be a Human. Charles was in that position. trip saw Charles as an intelligent person.

Look at the Episode as a thing as charles who has fianlly found someone who understands.
Trip treated Charles as he would any other intelligent being, with dignity.

This is a very deep episode and too many people don't get into it. they see the superficiaial.

Trip was not responsible for charles Suicide nor was he irrisponsible for befriending Charles.

Trip did exactly what I would have done in his place.

So shoot me.

[WarpGirl]

It DOES NOT matter that they were peaceful, it's the principle of the thing. What if they had attacked? What then? That's why Trip was wrong and completely irresponsible. HE LUCKED OUT!

I wouldn't call it stupidity, misguided might be a better word. For the record... Yes, I believe the way the Vissians (?) treated the Cogenitor was wrong, it was slavery and I don't condone slavery. HOWEVER since the cogenitor wasn't in any physical danger, as an officer he should have stayed out of it. First Contacts are dangerous tricky situations. If the Vissans had been a aggressive culture, or their laws had been different, Trip's actions could have constituted an act of war. I mean what better way of dealing a critical blow to a people than to attack the way they procreate? We know Trip wasn't doing that, but as T'Pol reminded him these people weren't human. He put every man woman and animal (because there are a lot on Enterprise) at serious risk. Not only the crew of Enterprise but the Vissians themselves were at risk. The casualties on both sides if a fire fight had broken out would have been enormous. So yeah Trip did a HUGE no no.

Well Silverbullet if we served together in this situation I wouldn't trust you.

[Aquarius]

The point of the episode was not about Trip being right. Again, Silverbullet, you are applying human standards to an alien race who does not share them. The point of this episode was to show us why the Prime Directive became necessary and later on played an integral role in many TOS and TNG plots. Because of Trip's interference with another culture, somebody died. Period. T'Pol had been cautioning everyone about judging other cultures by one's own sensibilities, because this is the kind of thing you get when you do that.

I agree that it didn't make sense for Trip to be making this kind of mistake this late in the game, but his previous "inexperience" with alien races would have made him the perfect character for this in the first season.

[WarpGirl]

I agree that Trip was morally right. Heck I even thought he had the Vissian Captain covinced that there was merit to his claims. But as an officer under a chain of command (Silverbullet you DO believe Starfleet IS a military) he was dead wrong. There could have been other ways for him to make his point. He could have spoken to T'Pol to see if there was a diplomatic solution. He could have confided in Phlox as to a course of action that MIGHT have made headway with the Vissians. But he didn't do any of that. I'm not saying he should have been complacent. But the way he went about matters was irresponsible and wrong professionally.

Like I said before I don't think he was responsible for the Cogenitor's death, teaching him/her/it how to read, some geography, Go, music, and some food, didn't make him/her/it, kill him/her/itself. But if the Vissians had been a culture like the Klingons people would have been slaughtered. Trip's actions set a hugely dangerous presidant. And yes he should have been reprimanded for that, but he wasn't. And that is why Archer is a hypocritical ass. BUT that DOES NOT make Trip's actions any less wrong.

OMG Aquarius you sound like me!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Silverbullet]

I would have to write an essay to raelly explain what I see.

The cognitor was presented in Human terms. He/she represented all of those who have been pushed to the margins, held down for no other reason that what they may have looked like or their backgrounds.

My lineage is Irish for the most part. At one time there were signs that said "Dogs and Irish keep Out."

Same as others who had to fight their way into american society.

Slavery waas wrong, Jim Crow was wrong, Denying Women the vote was wrong. chasity belts was wrong, Treating women as property and as pawns for Politial and econmic gain was wrong. but all existed. those things have been changed but it took an idea to start and grow before the change took place and ittook time and often danger to do it.

Perhaps trip was trying to light that Candle by teaching the Cognitor, hopig that he/she would tell its kind that reading, music, learning and a different life existed. that the others would take these ideas and learn to read, listen to music, to start a drive to accceptance. it would take time but Trip would have started something that could have led to a kind gaining its place as accepted members of society.



I believe the writers were trying to point out that the Cognitor was being treated unfairly and that Trip was trying to help Charles to go out and teach others of his kind.

Terra Prime was supposeed to be about aliens and Humans having a child. but if you watched the episode closely you soon realized that it was about blacks in a White world.

so this episode is a social commentary on our world disguised as a episode about Trip fouling up.

[WarpGirl]

OK Again nobody said the Vissians were right, about the treatment of the Cogenitor. Nobody said Trip's outrage, and wanting to help was wrong. What we are saying is that he went about it the wrong way.

I'm Irish I'm also Italian, at some point in American history nearly ALL minorities were pursecuted in some way or another. It still happens. Yes ST can and does do social commentaries on the foibles of us mere humans, but in reality it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[Silverbullet]

But it has every thing to do with the episode. It was social commentary.

Showing that the attitude of everyone was to shrug and say "that is the way it is."

Trip knowing it was wrong and trying to do somethhing positive about it.

Do you think any progress could have ben made if evryone's attitude of "That is the way it is" prevailed?

Someone had to make a stand against that and the wrong.

The woman who threw herself under a Horse and was killed to bring attention to womens Sufferage, the women at Seneca Falls, The people who manned the Underground Railroad at the risk of their rown lives. What if they Had they gone along and just said "That is the way it is."

Progress, especially Social Progress is slow and often dangerous. It takes people who are willing to do something that makes that progress.

You know what really dropped the scales from my eyes? A skit given by two British comedians. It mocked the attitudes towards blacks in books their screen image the nicknames given them on the screen and in books.. I wasn't a bigot but I was one who
went along with "that is the way it is." I thought about that skit for days. Then I got to thinking about my attitudes and what I accepted. I was stunned. I remembered laughing at Stephin Fetchet and others like him. Other things too.

It took an outsider to wake me up. So Trip was trying to wake up Charles.

[WarpGirl]

Silverbullet, dear, you're not listening. Nobody said Trip should have ignored it. But he went about it completely wrong. Look what happened the Cogenitor died. Now that wasn't Trip's fault. But it could have been prevented if Trip had gone about things differently. Lying and sneaking around helped NOBODY. Besides, there are protocals, that as an officer he was OBLIGATED to follow. I don't understand why you're not hearing this.

[Asso]

OK Again nobody said the Vissians were right, about the treatment of the Cogenitor. Nobody said Trip's outrage, and wanting to help was wrong. What we are saying is that he went about it the wrong way.

I'm Irish I'm also Italian, at some point in American history nearly ALL minorities were pursecuted in some way or another. It still happens. Yes ST can and does do social commentaries on the foibles of us mere humans, but in reality it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Maybe, but this one is a BIG thing. I think Silverbullet is right: we can't ignore that.
And... ... WarpGirl... you are half Italian, I am WHOLLY Italian, and a lot, a great lot of my family went to AMERICA (written just so: AMERICA, in capital letters) to find Liberty and Luck, and it found that. (Well, Italians also brought something in tow: ideas, courage, I think... but, I must admit, also MAFIA, damnit! )

[WarpGirl]

ASSO The American Mafia as we know it was actually started by the Irish, Italian immagrents just took it over. Anyway the debate isn't whether Trip's veiwpoint is wrong. It's whether his ACTIONS were, and why?

[panyasan]

Silverbullet, dear, you're not listening. Nobody said Trip should have ignored it. But he went about it completely wrong. Look what happened the Cogenitor died. Now that wasn't Trip's fault. But it could have been prevented if Trip had gone about things differently. Lying and sneaking around helped NOBODY. Besides, there are protocals, that as an officer he was OBLIGATED to follow. I don't understand why you're not hearing this.

I don't think things would have been different if Trip had acted differently. I agree, sneaking around wasn't the thing to do, he could have try to convince the others, but judging from Archers reaction, there is doubt if that would have worked. To simple say : order is order, that's it, is not enough. People hopefully have a moral code of their own.
To quote KTR excellent review :
"While a certain amount of caution is to be advised when you're dealing with alien cultures, there is such a thing as right and wrong. I'm definitely not a moral relativist. I do believe there are certain universal rights. In the Trek universe one may not say just human rights - in Cogenitor T'Pol does point out that the Vissians aren't humans - but I'd like to think that there are "sentients' rights", for lack of a better term. The kind of rights I'd like to see being the foundation for what will eventually become the United Federation of Planets. I don't care if that is viewed as a human-centric outlook, especially if the alternative leads to morally bankrupt consequences."

Trip was acting as a friend, offering his friendship, seeing Charles as a person, not as a thing. If Charles the Cogenitor didn't had commit suicide, it could mark it beginning of a new area for them. Slowly progress. I agree with SB on this.
That suicide was the decision of Charles. I was always suprised by it, he/she could not life with the consequences of being unfree? She/he lived that life for a long time and suddenly after a snif of literature and the world outside, he takes his life? Maybe he/she was murdered for all I know.

Any way, I can see the point that maybe Trip shouldn't snake around and he may have push a bit too much, but to put so much attention to that point, it look like agreeing with Archer that "it was all Trips fault", when basicly Trip was trying to be a friend.

[Asso]

Eh, I know the Irish and Italians have a lot of things in common (look at flag, for example. Okay, Irish has the Orange and Italian has the Red, but that's a small difference).
And then, I love Ireland, I feel it near me.

[WarpGirl]

No Panysan it is NOT all Trip's fault. But what he did could have cost lives if the Vissians had taken offense and retaliated with an attack. That's why Trip was wrong, in situations like that The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. There were other options, they might not have worked, but at least there were no lives at risk. The only life Trip had the right to risk was his own. And while he was NOT RESPONSIBLE for the Cogenitor's life, he WAS partially responsible for the Crew of Enterprise as third-in-command.

[Asso]

...Trip was acting as a friend, offering his friendship, seeing Charles as a person, not as a thing. If Charles the Cogenitor didn't had commit suicide, it could mark it beginning of a new area for them. Slowly progress. I agree with SB on this.
That suicide was the decision of Charles. I was always suprised by it, he/she could not life with the consequences of being unfree? She/he lived that life for a long time and suddenly after a snif of literature and the world outside, he takes his life? Maybe he/she was murdered for all I know....

PERFECT!