A Mirror Cracked Discussion Thread

[honeybee]

Thanks to all the good comments I'm getting down in decon, I thought I'd open up a discussion thread for "A Mirror Cracked".

Several people commented that the MU TnT are becoming more and more like their RU counterparts - although they never will be totally like their RU counterparts, I got inspired by the "Characters Essential Traits" thread and made it so that their fundamental natures are the same. It's just that the bleakness and harshness of their universe has made them tougher and more hardened. The whole point of getting them away from the Empire and stuck together was for them to evolve more into what they could be. We know the MU remains dark - but the idea that Vulcans become more equal, enough for Spock ( a half human hybrid) to be treated with respect in TOS's mirror universe, gives me hope that TnT might be able to be together.

Panyasan mentioned something about Polyandry and the Andorians. I took the idea that Andorians live in quad marriages and ran with it. Being married to three other people is the norm to them - and monogamy is weird and alien to them. On the other hand, finding one person to marry is tricky - the idea that you might find a nice husband - but he's already got a wife that you would also have to marry (and in my world have sex the other wife with since it's decon and I'm writing Andorians as pansexual) - well, this would present a problem. And then, assuming a triad formed - well, then they'd have to find the fourth - a husband. And that would be even harder.

One idea I had that I scrapped was the TnT would offer to marry Talas to get her away from Shran but since I think Vulcans are hard-core monogamists (with all due respect to CW ) - I don't think T'Pol would have been able to do that. Besides, I like Shran. But I did do a little research on the internet about people who live in what are called polyfidelic triads and quads - they are out there. I figure once an Andorian Quad forms - the four are faithful to each other - but before the four - they are free to do what they like.

One more thing. Lizzie and Archer. Glad some people are pulling for the unexpected pairing. I pretty much know where's its going - pretty dysfunctional - but in their own weird way they care about each other. Enough for Lizzie to get way jealous when Sato takes Archer back. Humans, while not as monogamous as Vulcans, can get very monogamous if they find the right person. This is true with Trip and his relationship with T'Pol - even though he "politely" considers other things with the Andorians - he really is faithful. So, humans are somewhere in the middle of the fidelity bell curve - with Vulcans being the most monogamous - and Andorians and Denobulans on the other end.

[Transwarp]

The whole point of getting them [TnT] away from the Empire and stuck together was for them to evolve more into what they could be.

I think you've done a good job showing their journey from enemies to grudging respect to mutual attraction to real affection. You showed us every step they took, and each step was taken for valid and completely believable reasons. Personally, I find a little goodness in the general depravity of the MU to be more realistic than all evil, all the time. Also more interesting.

n the other hand, finding one person to marry is tricky - the idea that you might find a nice husband - but he's already got a wife that you would also have to marry (and in my world have sex the other wife with since it's decon and I'm writing Andorians as pansexual) - well, this would present a problem. And then, assuming a triad formed - well, then they'd have to find the fourth - a husband. And that would be even harder.

I am not an expert on Andorians by any means, but I had to do a little research (since my T'Pol is facing time in an Andorian prison). What I found is that canon is open on the question of Andorian sexuality. However there is a non-canon source (ST book, don't know the name) that stipulates four distinct sexes (which have names other than 'male' and 'female'), each of which is required for reproduction. This concept appears to be popular in much fan fiction. If you are using this as a basis for your Andorians, your marriages would require one of each sex. It all sounds terribly complicated to me. In your case, it sounds like you might be stipulating quads built around male and females, which would be more social constructs than biological constructs, and would require a whole different set of rules. (For example, is the ratio of male to female fixed? And if it is--say three females to one male is the norm--do a lot of males get left out in the cold? Or is the birth rate similarly skewed?) The possibilities are endless, and fascinating. As for my story, I decided two sexes for Andorians was plenty.

One idea I had that I scrapped was the TnT would offer to marry Talas to get her away from Shran

I think you were wise to scrap that idea. I'm not sure I could have bought into it.

One more thing. Lizzie and Archer. Glad some people are pulling for the unexpected pairing.

I can't say that I'm pulling for them, yet. I'm not sure I completely trust Archer, and right now, I'm thinking Lizzie deserves better than him. But... but once again I can completely buy the relationship you've built so far. I can see how it developed, step-by-step, and it all makes perfect sense to me. Good character development.

[crystalswolf]

One idea I had that I scrapped was the TnT would offer to marry Talas to get her away from Shran

I think you were wise to scrap that idea. I'm not sure I could have bought into it.

I don't think wisdom had anything thing to do with it. It was Honeybee's choice and she chose. If she chose otherwise, that would be equally wise... for her story.

Obviously, I love Archer/Lizzie! They are just so darn cute! But then again, I love characters with baggage.

[honeybee]

I was vaguely aware of the other visions of Andorian poly-marriages, TW, but I liked the idea of a dual gender poly-amorous species so that was what I went with. And in this world, the quads are always mffm - and as I said, pansexual. I suppose I did it this way because I'm more drawn to the psychology of these relationships rather than the science - the amount of jealousy and who has what authority over whom would be absolutely fascinating. It makes me dizzy.

As for the scrapped idea about Talas, I decided it didn't fit with how monogamous Vulcans are in the MU - from the beginning - T'Pol said that Trip is as much hers as she is his - and that's been a big part of the story. So, it didn't work here. As an aside, I do buy that RU Vulcans, in the context of Pon Farr, might develop some kind of mate sharing system (as in CW's story) to prevent fights to the death - even if this mate sharing was secretive. But in the MU? Nope. T'Pol would fight to the death to keep Trip to herself - and expect him to do the same. Although, she was not angry or jealous when she figured out Talas made a play for Trip - because Trip turned her down, which pleased her, and Talas is from a polyandrous culture and therefor would not see offering herself to Trip as immoral. T'Pol respects that - it's Trip she would be pissed at.

I'm just making Andorians opposites of Vulcans in every way I can think of. T'Pol even has trouble finding vegetarian food among the Andorians. Like Polar Bears or the Tribes of Western Siberia, I figure Ice Dwellers - are primarily carnivorous.

[crystalswolf]

I'm just making Andorians opposites of Vulcans in every way I can think of. T'Pol even has trouble finding vegetarian food among the Andorians. Like Polar Bears or the Tribes of Western Siberia, I figure Ice Dwellers - are primarily carnivorous.

I absolutely loved that.

[Silverbullet]

Honeybee, in Canon a fight to the Death was the choice to avoid mate sharing. Spock and Kirk fought a death match so that only one male would have the female. T-Pol said she might delcare a fight to the death to Koss and he implied that he would win it. No mate sharing in Canon.

I always go the idea that two were bethrothed at age seven and that was going to be it. One mate for life. If one died then the other might marry agian but I never got the idea that Vulcans would share mates. If that were so then T-Pol could have married both Koss and Trip in Home.

[honeybee]

Well, SB, I don't mean to be argumentative - but all I said was that in the RU and in the context of pon farr - I find it plausible that mate sharing might go on - even on the down low, if you will. Say for example, two couples live in the rural part of Vulcan or are out on a deep space mission. One of the females dies. So, you've got two males, who we can assume both play important roles in the community or on the ship and need each other. The widowed male goes through Pon Farr. If he wants to live, he needs to mate. (I'm not sure if you can call a challenge if a couple is already bonded.) Would the other couple let their friend die? Would a challenge be possible? Would the married Vulcan consider letting his friend "borrow" his wife - if it meant saving his life? In the MU, the two men would fight to the death - winner getting the girl. I'm not sure that some arrangement wouldn't be worked out in the RU - because losing a vital member of a community or ship's crew isn't logical. Would this go on often? I think not. I think it is more likely that priestesses like the ones in Distracted and CW's stories probably exist to serve this need. But I'm saying it wouldn't surprise me if arrangements were worked out under extenuating circumstances.

[crystalswolf]

Silverbullet, I believe it is canon that the kunut kalifee was to purge blood fever when there was another suitor or the female did not want the male. There is no reference for what they would do before blood fever sets in (or not an issue at all) or if all parties are willing to seek an alternative for whatever reason.

Koss wished to challenge T'Pol's rejection of him. Does that mean he would not have agreed to a marriage including Trip if T'Pol didn't reject him completely? Maybe, maybe not but that's in the realm of story fodder.

I think Honeybee's take on the MU and monogamy is great! I love how violently possessive MU TnT are and helps pull me into the f***ed up universe.

[Silverbullet]

In my 75 years on this Earth I have lived n a lot of places. One of them was the Artic. At one time the Eskimo population almost colapsed. when a strange male would come in to a village he would be offered a female even one o f the wives in hopes of a pregnancy. this would help rebuild the popultion and erase the inbreeding that threatened the Eskimo and which has caused the collapse of the population.

In the past Females have bee used as bargaining chips, gifts and for a little Log rolling. But this usualy was in the ruling sector. In both cases there was a sound reason dehind the sharing of females.

On nvulcan there ws no collapse of the population or there would be no Pon Farr every seven years which usually ended with a pregnancy. The females would be receptive and fertile the year round.. Pon Farr would not exist.

The male to female ration seems to be in balace so mate sharing would not be needed.

I am not sure but I though that a death match could be called if a female decided she did not want to be married to her bethtrothed but to another male. I may wrong in this.

If there were no need for a boost to the populatin by increased Baby making and relying only on every seven years Pon Farr the need for mate sharing doesn't seem to exist. You have a mate to have babies. If the male to female ratio was in balance again no need for mate sharing. Enough to go around. I cannot see how a male can end up in a situation where he is away from Vulcan when his Pon farr approaces. He KNOWS when itis gong to hapen so he has plenty of time to get home. The idea of women of the Church (widows, divorcees, etc) who would help a male through his Pon Farr proably would be accurate.

Given all of that Mate sharing would seem not to be a viable possiblity.

As far as Trip agreeing to sharing T-Pol wit Koss. NNO. He would not. He is a Human male and shaaring his emale isnot one of the things he would do, period. In primitive scieties it is a possiblility but Trip is from a more civilized society which frowns on Mate sharing. There are abberations but those are in a very small segment of the population at large. a Prcent of a percent of a percent.

[bluetiger]

This may sound rather harsh but since I despise MU Archer here goes. All Archer has to offer it seems to me is that he had sex with Lizzie. If that is her sole way to judge a mate, why didn't she marry the boy that tried to rape her, at least he was rich. I don't see that Archer is a step up.

[Asso]

This may sound rather harsh but since I despise MU Archer here goes. All Archer has to offer it seems to me is that he had sex with Lizzie. If that is her sole way to judge a mate, why didn't she marry the boy that tried to rape her, at least he was rich. I don't see that Archer is a step up.

I agree.

[pdsldl]

Honeybee the problem with I see with what you say could happen would be the bond. If a couple were bonded it would seem the purpose is to procreate (not just so the couple survive) and to keep them together until one or the other dies. That would make the inclusion of a third party into the bond a no go. I see the bond as the Vulcans version of love between mates and find it difficult to sharing a mate you love with anyone else. Just because Andorians/Denobulans marry doesn't mean they love. Not all marriages are based on love. Some are for money, power, future generations, and convenience. Phlox seemed to think humans were too emotional about relationships with mates when Feezel wanted Trip and he refused because they were married. To me that's the difference in how these relationships are approached.

[crystalswolf]

SB, population control, I would think, would be a little different for beings that could live 200+ years. Imagine the population when it's common for a child and their great great grandparent (and everyone in between) to be alive at the same time for years at a time.

As for what Trip would or would not accept, we've had this lengthy discussion and I definitely do not want to hijack Honeybee's thread with it.

BT, that is an interesting take on it. I saw their relationship from the standpoint that Lizzie had to trust Archer out of necessity and he passed with flying colors. The end result is that he is the only male she can trust right now and trust allows for other emotions to seep in. Although I could be just completely off on that.

[Alelou]

SilverBullet, according to TOS a Vulcan male doesn't know when he will enter pon farr, or at least not his first one -- if it were that easy, Spock woudn't have been out in space when it hit him.

Women also have 'regular' cycles on this planet, but I sure wouldn't want to pin any money on when mine will actually occur. I have a hard time believing something like pon farr could be written on a calendar seven years ahead of time with any great accuracy for the day.

I tend to agree with Honeybee that mate sharing might have occurred in the past in isolated situations (rather like your Eskimos), but would be unlikely today. The fight-to-the-death thing strikes me as some sort of weird anachronistic throw-back to the pre-Surak violence of Vulcan society. Males fighting over females is fairly universal -- in nature, it's a way of ensuring the fittest mate while the others don't. I would think civilized Vulcans would consider it horrific. I know I do, and would have a very hard time respecting any Vulcan woman who would make that choice. It's handy when you need a good script featuring a Vulcan b--ch you don't want the hero to really have to marry, though.

[bluetiger]

CW, I have rethought my comment. It sounded sort of like I was trying to tell Honeybee what to do and that was not my intention. I totally agree that any author here should write whatever they please with no censorship.

I let my dislike of MU Archer cause me to be hasty. I'll survive even if Trip doesn't blow a big hole in Archer(sigh).