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JT and I are having a discussion re Vulcans and a belief system (Religion) She feels if any it would be like Buddahism. Suracks teachings.

In Star Trek III (the Movie) there were Monk's and a High Priestess.

So, do the Logical Vulcans wonder about the questions: Why are we Here? Where do we come from? Who or what made the Universe? Is there a Creator? What is the first Cause? (that one will drive you nuts) etc.

I think being logical they would have developed a belief system. A Religiion if you will.

any thought on this

I've been tackling this in my fic and have come to the conclusion that Vulcans are spiritual not religious. I think perhaps they did worship god(s) in their past but I can't see that continuing after Surak. Pure logic, suppressing emotions and religious faith don't mesh at all. I see Surak as more of a philosopher like Plato, etc... and the the practice and teaching others how to master and/or purge emotions as being the main focus of priest in monasteries. They never seemed concerned with why they were here etc... questions. They sought knowledge but were very focused and had a purpose and were not prone to going off on tangents just to see and explore like we humans are known to do.

I think it's generally thought that pre-Surak - the Vulcans were pagans.

And I agree with JT, that the teachings of Surak serve as a religion - but a philosophical religion more along the lines of Zen Buddhism - with an emphasis on meditation rather than theoretical knowledge.

Well, a dividing rule between philosophy and religion is rarely existent anyway.

To all those how disagree to my last sentence: if you think different, write your opinion down, publish it as a book and if it holds what it claims, your name will be remember in mankinds history for a long time - at least in the areas of science and art.

honeybee wrote:And I agree with JT, that the teachings of Surak serve as a religion - but a philosophical religion more along the lines of Zen Buddhism - with an emphasis on meditation rather than theoretical knowledge.

I think that's the best way to approach this topic.

I wouldn't be surprised if Vulcans had a lot of religion at some point and it was one of the things they fought over or pretended to fight over (so often, religion is just the excuse for riling up the mob to help you grab land and power or whatever). So I believe Surak and others would have reacted against that and all other irrational faith-based belief systems. However, T'Pau's faith in Surak and the Kir'Shara also strikes me as essentially religious in nature, while T'Pol, before the Awakening, seems to be a genuine skeptic. I'm not sure what she is after that (and I'm not sure she knows what she is either). But to the extent the Vulcans are throwing around terms like "sacred monastery" or "priestess" or "nun" I think we have to assume there's at least some form of religious tradition that has survived the passage of time even before the Kir'Shara comes along.

My understanding of Eastern religions is very limited, but I do think there's usually a worked-out 'theory' of deeper realities behind most of their practices. We may miss some of it because we're intoning things in a language we don't understand. (To me, aum namah shivayah is pretty much just a pretty, mystical sounding phrase to chant while trying to achieve a meditative state, but to a Hindu it has real meaning.) At any rate, to the extent that the theory behind certain mystical practices cannot be objectively confirmed, I would still consider all of that religious.

My little two cents.
Religion is faith, Vulcans have faith in logic, they have religion.
(illogical syllogism)

I agree with Honeybee, but just to add to it. Spirituality - they believe in katras. One of the definitions of religion (at least according to Merriam-Webster) is "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith" = logic. I think they do ask those questions but only answer them through science.

Logic is the only God, and Surak is Its Prophet?

I think Zen Buddhism in particular differs from most Western religions in that it looks to transcend theological questions, such as the Christian bickering over the nature of the trinity or the body of christ. It's not that they don't have a theology, it's just that the answers to theological questions should come through an individual meditation and discussion and other practices - and can't necessarily be articulated or written down or codified in a stringent way. But they do look to great teachers (like the Vulcans might look at T'Pau) for guidance.

It's like Zen Buddhists attempt to know the unknowable while recognizing that it is unknowable.

Surak certainly registers to me like a Buddha figure - someone who set an example of enlightenment that theoretically all Vulcans can attain. This, as opposed to the western idea of a divine prophet that is singular like Jesus or special but not singular like Mohamed.

Rigil Kent wrote:Logic is the only God, and Surak is Its Prophet?

More or less. And just beacuse of that, free minds are needed.

To my way of thinking religion speaks of practices and worship involving a being or godlike figure or head. I don't see Vulcans worshiping in that way. They hold Surak in high esteem as one who saw a better path for his people to follow and a direction that would end their self-annihilation. Priests serve to assist with bonding, purging of emotions and other rituals that may affect the mental health/sanity of Vulcans. (a'rie'mnu, fullara, kolinahr, etc...) and are revered but not worshiped as priests are on Earth. I see them much like our own scientific community in that they seek knowledge through science and not faith.

More later, but my disagreement with Silverbullet is not whether Vulcans have a religion. I am quite sure they do have a religion, BUT it is not theistic.

It is NOT true that a religion or an ethical system must include a belief in God. Be just and good. That is an ethical system. God is not required as a foundation to an ethical system. Also a religion, can aim at things like "LOVE" or "Enlightenment" or "Being one with the universe" rather than worship of a personal god.

justTripn wrote:More later, but my disagreement with Silverbullet is not whether Vulcans have a religion. I am quite sure they do have a religion, BUT it is not theistic.

It is NOT true that a religion or an ethical system must include a belief in God. Be just and good. That is an ethical system. God is not required as a foundation to an ethical system. Also a religion, can aim at things like "LOVE" or "Enlightenment" or "Being one with the universe" rather than worship of a personal god.

Religion has one or many Gods, Jt. If not, it is not religion, in my opinion. It could be , as you said, an ethical system, but not religion.

I think the many practitioners of Zen Buddhism or Taoism and other faiths that do not necessarily have a god or god would disagree.

Rigel, that sounds like the muslim's

"There is only one God and Mohammed is its Prophet"

Still, there are the great questions. Logical minds would seek answers to them.

Religion often is supposed to answer the unaswrable.

First Cause can tie up a Logical mind. The Universe, how can alogical mind look at it and not wonder.

I did not do much in the way of studies of Religions. But one thing always stood out: All Relgigions have the "Golden rule, Do unto to others......" I often wondered why. Is it in the nature of man towrd empathy?

So, is there anywhere in Canon that inidcates Vulcans believe in an after life? If so they must have a religion because an Afterlife is part and parcel of a Belief sysem.