Why the Trip abuse?

[Rigil Kent]

Before I get started here, I really want to make a point of stating that this is heavily based on my opinion and reflects what I've perceived in a lot of fics. Take that as you will, but please don't think I'm making an attack on the various writing styles or stories of people out.

To wit: Why is it that the Trip Tucker in so many fics out there seems willing to put up with the continuing T'Pol jerkaround? I've seen this in a lot of fics lately, where T'Pol screws him around and, like an abused spouse, he takes it and comes back for more. I realize that some of this is probably based on his lack of a spine when it comes to T'Pol in season 4 and his apparent willingness to put her with her constant "Come Here, Go Away" nonsense, but really ... it seems like it has become something of a cliche (ala Polly Farr). T'Pol jerks him around and - GASP - he takes it and comes back for more. Why? Why don't more fics have him acting in a realistic manner and walking away, thus forcing her to pursue him for once?

Is this due to the fact that most of the writers appear to be female and they want to believe that this idealized character would actually stand there and take this nonsense? I get that Trip has demonstrated on the televised show an ability to put up with her obvious confusion, and I get that a Human/Vulcan relationship would obviously be different than a Human/Human one, but, for the life of me, I truly and honestly cannot think of a single heterosexual male friend or acquaintance of mine who would put up with being jerked around like Tucker is so often. Case-in-point: ShouldKnowBetter's latest fic (which was a good fic, don't get me wrong) over at HoT has T'Pol bugging out of the relationship after Elizabeth died because of fear. Yes, they eventually get back together but it is only after much angst and the like. Dinah's ongoing fic at HoT (which is an amazing read for something that is her first fic) has a Trip taking steps that I can actually buy, especially given that the T'Pol in it apparently doesn't respect Trip enough to actually explain why she broke up with him. As another example, I seem to recall someone arguing that Blackn'blue's fic seemed heavily biased against T'Pol and the various ... sins (for lack of a better word) that she had committed against Trip, but, to me, it seemed one of the very few fics out there where an author approached the subject matter and noted that it was consistently T'Pol who was the character that retreated from the relationship and, in doing so, treated her S.O. like dirt.

I know that I've interacted with people over at Brunette Jolene about this very thing, and I know that some people don't agree with my take on this (HopefulRomantic for one, but I'm sure she knows by know that she and I have wildly different viewpoints on a wide variety of things), but I truly want to know what other people think.

Again, no offense intended to anyone who has used this angle...

[hth2k]

While I agree with the premise that eventually he would get tired of the BS and bail as any guy would when he has been abused past his limit. It seems many modern women expect a guy to be a doormat and keep comming back for more. Perhaps there are enough guys out there to give creedence to this attitude. I know that when I told my last GF I'd had it she was unbelieving that I meant it. There is truth in the saying, "No matter how good looking or good in bed she is, eventually somebody will get tired of her ***t." Yeah, it applies to guys equally well I figure.

T'Pol has an advantage that human women do not. She has a mental hook in Trip. I think it is a bidirectional thing and Trip has the same hook in her. It modifies the way they interact. Trip knows on some level, subconscious, she has problems and puts up with it because he wants to. I think he sees her with rose colored glasses and hangs in because he really knows it will eventually work out. I also think he knows she wants it to work out but has issues.

JMNSHO

HtH

[Rigil Kent]

It modifies the way they interact.

Does it? Does it really? Then why is it that it's always T'Pol whose dicking Trip around, yet always seems to get a pass because she's "confused". I can't help but to notice that it always seems to be Trip who is having to "put up with it" and "be there" for her, which is what prompted my theory about the bulk of authors being women and having this idealized view of the character who seems willing to put up with a seemingly unlimited amount of crap.

I guess I've just gotten really tired of seeing that same cliche repeated ad infinitum with each new story that seems to come out. The show didn't exactly help in this regard, but I, for one, really would kind of see him portrayed in a slightly more realistic manner at times...

[blacknblue]

Shit, I'll dive into this one. Why not? I am already a caveman. And I have already been raked over the coals about it, as you mentioned above.

I think it is really as simple as you said. Most of the writers who post to HoT are female. Plain and simple. Plus, this is a fantasy site. (Granted, the genre is Sci-Fi, but the stories are most often romantic fantasies). They seem, IMO as a non-enlightened, redneck, politically incorrect, back hair unwaxed male to reflect the ideal of what they (the female writers) would like to see in a perfect male.

I am going to get scalped and gelded for this. But oh well.

[Rigil Kent]

reflect the ideal of what they (the female writers) would like to see in a perfect male.

I well and truly hope that this is not the case, because if it is, then any chance of me getting married and siring future bloodthirsty misanthropes (which already seems like an unlikely thing) goes completely out the window. I simply can't fathom consistently getting the short end of the stick as Trip constantly does and not just ... giving up and moving to Siberia or Alaska or something. I know that KTR once stated that T'Pol was, rather obviously, a "high maintenance woman", but if this is the sort of thing that is expected of men nowadays, then I guess it's no wonder that I'm still single.

[blacknblue]

Fear not. Grownup women don't really expect this of real men in the real world. No more than we really expect them to meet us at the door with our pipe and slippers. It is fun to day dream about, but not a chance of actually ever finding someone like that.

Besides, real women don't fall in love with real men that they can't respect. A n**less wonder like Trip is portrayed in most of these stories couldn't even get a date with most of the women on this board in real life. You are fine. Lotsa women out there are looking for men with actual testosterone in their veins, even these days. If *I* can find a woman who was willing to bear two children for me, anyone can do it.

[Rigil Kent]

Any ladies out there who want to pipe in? I'd really like to get the female perspective on this...

[blacknblue]

*Cringes fearfully and waits with tears of anguish dripping off his cheeks, anticipating his beating.*

It might work...

[Rigil Kent]

Well, I'm just really curious about other POVs here, ya know? I tend to have a pretty politically incorrect caveman-like mindset myself, so I'm hoping that some of the ladies will pop in and give me their two cents as well.

[HopefulRomantic]

Well, after that intro, I shall not utter one word on the subject.

[Bether6074]

Hmm...should I?

Personally, I'd hate to think of the TnT relationship as one in which T'Pol is "abusing" Trip. They love one another and sometimes when two people are in love, they don't act the way they normally would. They don't see things the way they normally would. Sometimes they lose perspective and act irrational. I suppose from my female POV, I like the fact that Trip is willing to sacrifice some things for T'Pol, but I would never want him to sacrifice his self-respect. But we also have to consider that T'Pol is not human and she may be more unaware that the things she does are hurtful.

I like a man that is driven by love and will do anything to protect his loved one. But I would never want Trip reduced to a rug mat in the process. He must retain his self-respect and be allowed to be himself in the relationship. Falling in love is the easy part. Learning to be equal partners through shared love is something much more difficult. It's understandable if there are bumps along the way. It's a learning process for them.

[justTripn]

Rigil. You are 100% right. Trip should NOT put up with that crap. Going against a stereotype I didn't know existed, in my first posted story, (a fix the finale story) I explained the canon breakup of the T 'n T relationship after Terra Prime as resulting from sexual incompatibility and Trip slipping and having an affair. I remember I did this because I was sick of it always being the other way round. T'Pol mistreats Trip, who hangs around like some abused puppy. (Of course I got raked over the coals for suggesting Trip would be anything but perfect and loyal.)

But this whole unhealthy T'Pol mistreats Trip dynamic both on screen and in the fics bugged me alot. The few stories that pointed it out got ignored. I figured I would have to "get with the program" and write Trip that way OR move into the E-squared universe, where all the mistreatment is forgotten and in the past. I did a little of both. I don't make excuses for T'Pol. In fact, the question I was dying to ask you guys is why the facination with her when she is so mean. Peter Simons once said or hinted (I forget) that Trip would have been better off with Amanda. His stories are qute interesting.

When I was dating, my freinds tried to explain to me that this is how it is supposed to work: the man pursues the woman who may lead him on for a while before revealing that he has absolutely no chance in hell. (After several expensive dinners etc.) I ALWAYS argued back that this was wrong. Corralary: the woman is never, never supposed to call the guy on the phone, but wait for his calls. All a bunch of dysfunctional nonsense.

But I know that because the man DOES usually chase the woman it puts the woman in a position of power which is easy to abuse. It's easy to be mean when you have the upper hand--so I can write T'Pol that way easily since I have been that way. Why? The guy liked me more than I liked him. And then if he puts up with it, you treat him even worse because it annoys you he doesn't have a backbone.

I'm glad you guys are finally complaining about T'Pol. Proves you have a backbone.

[Rigil Kent]

Personally, I'd hate to think of the TnT relationship as one in which T'Pol is "abusing" Trip.

That really wasn't the intent of the thread and I apologize for that; by "abuse", I mostly meant the authors constantly writing fics that basically result in Trip getting the short end of the stick and having to put up with levels of nonsense from T'Pol that no real male would. It isn't my perception that T'Pol "abuses" him, but rather, she is all too often inconsiderate of his feelings (being Vulcan and all) which leads me to dislike how she is painted at times.

But we also have to consider that T'Pol is not human and she may be more unaware that the things she does are hurtful.

Which is inconsiderate IMO. By the time that they become involved in a relationship, she's known Trip long enough to know how he's going to react, so assuming that she is "unaware" of hurtful things doesn't work for me, especially if this is post-Terra Prime.

Trip slipping and having an affair.

Well, I kind of have a problem with that as I see Trip as having an old fashioned mentality, where one sticks with one's mate through better or for worse. It just seems to defy his characterization that he would have an affair, IMO, regardless of the circumstances. I've already gone on record stating my complete disagreement regarding your take on the incompatibility of them sexually, so this isn't the place to rehash that argument.

In fact, the question I was dying to ask you guys is why the facination with her when she is so mean.

I don't really agree with the assertion that she is "mean", only very inconsiderate at times and remarkably poorly written at others. I've always (always) had a problem with the way she has been written sometimes, whether it begins with her turning into Sidekick!Polly to Super!Archer when he has frankly treated her like crap, or whether it's her becoming Drugged!Up!Polly. It really seems (to me, anyway) that a lot of writers seem to enjoy the "T'Pol walks, Trip mopes, & T'Pol returns" dynamic.

But then, look at how many fics use that cliched Hurt/Comfort storyline as well.

Peter Simons once said or hinted (I forget) that Trip would have been better off with Amanda.

Which I don't agree with in the slightest. Cole wasn't even that interesting and it said a lot about her character that she would pursue Tucker with the rumors about a TnT relationship circulating around the ship.

But I know that because the man DOES usually chase the woman it puts the woman in a position of power which is easy to abuse.

Which explains why I'm still single at 34 since I've simply walked away from any woman who started pulling this crap. Guess I simply don't have the patience to play that game.

I'm glad you guys are finally complaining about T'Pol. Proves you have a backbone.

Nah. It just proves I'm in a really, really foul mood and tired of the same storyline being recycled...

[Distracted]

Hi. I guess I'll put in my two cents here.

As BnB so adeptly put it, fantasy and reality are two different things. Telling an exciting tale requires conflict. The conflict can either be external (a la Rigil's blowing shit up stories), or internal/relationship conflict. This is a romance site, guys... all about RELATIONSHIPS... and the series has provided us with a pre-prepared conflict to exploit. Why do most female fanfic writers portray Trip in this way? Because the SERIES did, and we want to see them together. In order to GET them together we've got to explain WHY Trip takes her shit and comes back for more. The shit, unfortunately, is a given. Having T'Pol chase after him desperately would be painfully OOC unless handled with exquisite subtlety. Thus, we are left with the man of infinite patience and understanding that is our sweet Trip.

So... the question burning in Rigil's mind, I'm assuming, is whether the relationship between TnT reflects what women want in real life.

Sigh.

I obviously can't speak for all women, being the socially deprived and retarded geek that I am. Perhaps someone who's been in more than one serious romantic relationship in their lifetime would be better at answering your question, Rigil. From the standpoint of someone wedded and bedded (in that order) at age 20 by the first man who professed undying love for me (an amazing thing in and of itself for a socially inept bookworm like myself) I can truthfully say that there is something to be said for being first in line. I can't tell you whether my husband would suffer by comparison with other men, because I have no basis for comparison.

I can tell you, though, that being best friends with him for 5 years before we married set the stage for a true partnership rather than the typical "romance" relationship. I had no qualms about calling him, telling him off, or giving him my honest opinion from day one. I like to think that it was the same with him, but he did have some previous baggage to deal with, being 6 years older than I am, and thus has always been the more "romantic' of the two of us. He proposed on Valentine's Day, for example. He also was raised in a very traditional southern family by a very traditional mother who drilled extremely old-fashioned manners into his poor head until holding doors open and rising when a lady entered the room were reflex behaviors on his part. I must confess that, despite the fact that I have NEVER required such behavior from him, the fact that he did them anyway (still does when we go out to dinner) just tickled me pink.

So... what do I personally want in a man? Why, exactly what I've got.

[starwatcher]

Bit new to this forum stuff, so bear with me - I can see what you mean about Trip coming back for more, despite what T'Pol does, but I always try to bear in mind that she is Vulcan, and has been taught to supress her emotions - what she feels for Trip is probably meant to be quite a scary thing, especially as its with a human who she has, at the end of the day, always had a highly volatile (hope I've spelt that right!) and tempestuous (and that one!) relationship with, and it seems logical that they continue to have such a relationship. That said, however, poor Trip does sometimes seem to be on the recieving end of quite a lot of c**p - I'm trying to have a balanced view here!!! xx hope that makes sense!