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Or more specifically, to all those who think that only the pursuit of romance is exciting and that establishing them as an actual item would make them boring. If you still don't know what I'm talking about, this pretty much goes back to all the arguments I've ever seen for the pointless angst we saw between them in Season 4 of the show, and that has been continued in the official books starting with "The Good That Men Do". I said it then, and I'll say it now - that's crap.

Now before you go and get insulted, I'll try to explain myself a bit better (not that this has ever helped in the past to keep people from getting insulted).

Lately I've been reading a blogger's look at DS9 after he's rewatched it since the first time since it first aired: Link.

Why am I posting something about DS9 in the TnT forum? I have one excerpt in particuliar I'd like to share with you:

It's an axiom of television writing that romance, and specifically romantic pursuit, is interesting, but established relationships, and most especially marriages, are boring. Perhaps because it was generally strongest when telling stories about the conventional and the mundane, on Deep Space Nine the reverse was true. Its romantic plotlines were usually obvious and uninspired (and occasionally offensive), but its depictions of long-term romantic relationships were winning and, yes, romantic.

Dax and Worf come together in the most insipid of ways, and the fifth season episodes that focus on their courtship are tiresome and in some cases ("Let He Who is Without Sin") borderline unwatchable. Once they marry, however, the writing for their relationship achieves a whole new level. If previously there had been a sense that the romance between the two characters was overwhelming its participants, that they were being forced into standard romantic templates whether their personalities suited those templates or not (for instance, the wedding imperiled at the last minute in "You Are Cordially Invited"), the scenes and episodes that focus on them after their marriage truly seem to be about Worf and Dax, and the entity that they create together. The most obvious example is "Change of Heart," which for my money is the most romantic hour Deep Space Nine ever produced. Worf and Dax feel like themselves, and yet there's clearly something more to them, a togetherness which they are only beginning to explore and appreciate. In other episodes--the dinner scene in "Resurrection," the babysitting subplot in "Time's Orphan"--they are comfortable with one another, and that comfort extends to their interactions with others. It's clear that marriage agrees with them and that it makes them happy--which only makes it so much more tragic when Jadzia dies.

There's also Keiko and Miles as far as established relationships being plenty interesting and romantic.

Some of you might still be wondering what this has to do with TnT. The point I'm trying to drive home here is that there have been plenty of past examples where even in Trek, established relationships have been dramatic, romantic, and interesting, despite this prevailant attitude that says either only the pursuit is any interesting (which is why I feel TnT was artificially dragged out in the series and continues to be in the books), or that romance and Trek (or even sci fi as a genre) just don't mix (which I feel is mainly because of how sucky Trek writers tend to be in the pursuit stage in the relationship). As DS9 showed us, this is just plain untrue. Yeah, it means jack and squat to say now that TnT really should've gotten together and been an established item in the beginning of season 4 (in keeping with the direction that had been started in Countdown with Trip's promise to be "all ears" after T'Pol's subtle request for him to do so) rather than being split up in the contrived manner they were in Home and later at the end of the Vulcan arc, or even that they should've been mature about what hapepned in Harbinger, but there's nothing to be done about it. What can I say? I just feel better to have my viewpoint vindicated by someone else outside of the community, even if it isn't about TnT in particular. There's also a small part of me that wishes the authors and editors responsible for producing the new book series would read and heed what I've said here, but I highly doubt it. And no, I don't post this to spoil anyone's enjoyment of the books, I simply want to let it be known that we really could be getting TnT together and it'd probably be better than the angst that continues to artificially force the two of them apart. Yeah, there's something sad in seeing unrequetted love, but it gets old and worn out after a while.

CX, what do I have to tell?
You, and everyone on this site, know very well my ideas and my thoughts.
They are EXACTLY the same you have.
Consequently, it's difficult for me to add something else to your words.
But I am very, very glad you were capable of telling all this in such a splendid way.
Well.. it almost sounds you are more passionate than me!
And... who knows... maybe the "Official Writers" could read this "stuff", and their minds may open, a teeny bit.
Also if -I must tell that, too - I have read most beautiful stories on this site and on other Fansites, than in the "Official Books".
No offence made!

I agree, CX. I find that in the married couple I often write about the angst doesn't end - it just changes to match the particular life phase they're in at the time. The pursuit of romance phase gets boring after a while, especially when their mistakes become repetitive. That just makes me wonder about the intelligence of the characters involved.
News Flash - life doesn't end after being married with children. <= actually, there's enough angst right there to make the romantic pursuit phase look like a pathetic cliché.

I agree -- these two are NEVER going to be boring. Besides, they'd have so much to work out in a committed relationship I think we could still enjoy a steady supply of suspense. Not to mention one hopes the external plots are at least as important as the relationship elements in a decent science fiction show, and a good strong relationship can heighten the stakes in the other plots.

I saw Enterprise out of order originally so I think I have more tolerance for the 'contrived angst' of season 4, but compared to some shows I thought it was pretty generous in giving healthy dollops of TnT once they really got started in Season 3. At least until that finale. But perhaps I speak as a traumatized survivor of The X-Files, which got just so incredibly stupid and ridiculous for YEARS in its inane attempt to keep Mulder and Scully from resolving their relationship.

UST that is too drawn out does too much damage to the characters involved. After awhile they just look cowardly and dumb.

I gave up on DS9 pretty early, but I always enjoyed Keiko and Miles. They provided a really nice break from the endlessly unresolved ships on TNG before they switched over too. And Paris and Torres were the only thing I enjoyed about Voyager after awhile (I gave up on that one too before it was over). On the other hand, Chakotay and 7 of 9 made me want to gag. Some relationships just should never even be thought of.

*Delurking to add my bit*

I agree too! The highs and lows of a human/vulcan couple, both in angst and humour would have been interesting to watch, and CT and JB would have done a wonderful job.
I have to say I fought against the ship when first watching ENT because a cynical part of me knew that a relationship in Star trek didn't stand a chance. I lost the fight of course, and got lost in TnT, but at least the writers of the show did have TnT moments which were great to see, even if they were at times annoyingly drawn out UST.
And Chakotay and Seven? Don't get me started!!!!

I agree with you. I haven't read any of the books, but I was anoyed about the season four angst.

Maybe I'm a romantic, but for me there is something really special to see a relationship where there is deep love and friendship a true companionship that kind that can last the rest of your life. I don't think it's boring. Besides wouldn't that be a better role model too than being stubborn and making so much out of the pursuit, but then nothing out of the actual relationship. People divorce so much and it seems to be only few people that find that something special and someone special to be their best friend and passionate lover to share everyhting with both good and bad times. Maybe the writers have never experienced or seen that and don't know how to write about it. As CX also said there was a good start when Trip promised to be all ears. And the Terra Prime episodes were into the right direction about being there together. I know that relationship like that needs some effort from both participants and most of the time although there was potential it seemed they weren't ready to make that extra effort to achieve it and that's why I like the line in the end of Bound about having lot of work to do because it gave me hope that maybe they would finally be ready and then the huge dissapointment later that they weren't.

And an angsty relationship can take so much focus of the main topic in scifi.

Alelou wrote:Not to mention one hopes the external plots are at least as important as the relationship elements in a decent science fiction show, and a good strong relationship can heighten the stakes in the other plots.

That is how I think too couldn't have said it any better.

I think Trip & T'Pol being together as a couple wouldn't be boring at all there is so much story left to tell being from 2 different cultures and different worlds threre's still alot of differences for them to work out for their relationship.Miles and Keiko's relationship is a good example of things ds9 did right more mature storytelling about being married and the up and downs and stress that happens and joy as well of them through out the 7 seasons of ds9.but in the end they're still together.they love each other.

snapper wrote:And Chakotay and Seven? Don't get me started!!!!

I've actually been toying with the idea of C/7.

I hated it because TPTB literally pulled that 'ship right out of their ass. They completely glossed over the pursuit stage witch ruined it completely (so yes, the pursuit stage does need to be acknowledged and milked for what it's worth, otherwise the pairing will make little sense).

But then someone actually got me thinking about all the angst that could come out of an ex-borg falling for the yes-ma'am first officer & I'm stating to think there could be some interesting story potential there. Chakotay is very mature and he expects others to be the same way, and Seven is very tight-assed, virginal, & accustomed to living in a society that had complete control over her mind. She craves human maturity and Chakotay expects it - I could even see him demanding it from her.

Eh, I was always more of a Doctor/Seven 'shipper myself when I was watching. For that matter even Janeway/Seven would've been more interesting, but since TPTB don't like to use homosexuality as anything more than brief titilation, I guess we all knew that was never going to happen.

Bookworm wrote:Maybe the writers have never experienced or seen that and don't know how to write about it.

That's the part that I keep coming back to. I am becoming more and more convinced that the majority of tv writers have never seen, much less experienced, a healthy marriage so they have no idea how to write one.

^ I agree with that. But some of the actors are married and have children so I think when it is shown they overcome the limitations imposed on them by the writers. Like when Paris & Torres got married and Torres got pregnant you could tell that the actors really fell into their rolls and they were pretty believable.

CX wrote:Eh, I was always more of a Doctor/Seven 'shipper myself when I was watching. For that matter even Janeway/Seven would've been more interesting, but since TPTB don't like to use homosexuality as anything more than brief titilation, I guess we all knew that was never going to happen.

I was a K/7 'shipper for like two episodes and then Seven just got on my nerves so I just hated any episode that centered around her - in other words, I hated about 50 percent of what aired. She became the overused plot device and a pretentious Mary Sue. I'm liking C/7 more and more just because she needs a good toning down by Commander!boring(tm)

It's difficult to write - to WELL write - a fiction that is capable of narrating great things and at the same time of describing the warm feeling of peoples who finally have found their path... their road.
Many writers seem thinking that a love story is "a love story" until it don't end into a solid marriage.
Because they don't be capable of telling about the difficulties of being a true couple.
Life don't end with wedding!
On the contrary, it becomes richer than earlier!
And more difficult, too!
I burn with rage, when I think about the enormous possibilities lost, because there haven't been the courage of narrating the life together of the first inter-world couple!

blacknblue wrote:

Bookworm wrote:Maybe the writers have never experienced or seen that and don't know how to write about it.

That's the part that I keep coming back to. I am becoming more and more convinced that the majority of tv writers have never seen, much less experienced, a healthy marriage so they have no idea how to write one.

TV writing often is a young man's game, and God knows it demands an incredible time commitment, but I just don't buy this argument. For one thing, some TV writers actually are MARRIED COUPLES (the Reeves-Stevens come to mind) and I'm you have to have a really strong marriage to survive that.

I wouldn't underestimate the power of studio/network executives much higher than the writers and writer-producers to put the kabosh on relationships or any other significant change in a television show -- while also insisting that shapely actresses wear illogically titillating outfits. The only thing those twits at UPN cared about was the male age 18-34 demographic.

I agree that DS9 showed it could be done.

So did Farscape. Farscape did it well, too.

I personally don't think T/T'P would be boring in any way, had the TPTB established them as a firmly secure married or bonded couple. CX, you make great points, and largely I agree.

The problem for me is that TPTB didn't fully establish T/T'P as a firmly secure married or bonded couple on the actual series. They had only just STARTED that process in the last few episodes of season four. So any official continuation has to address and deal with that fact. There's a ways to go yet to get T/T'P there. And like it or not, based on what we were given on the actual show, there are various insecurities and past hurts and Elizabeth's death and T'Pol's emotions to address in the meantime, BEFORE they can be truly together. That's why I really like the relaunch books by Pocket - at least the couple we've seen so far - which I think are just good epic stories anyway. By the end of the Romulan War arc begun in The Good That Men Do and Kobayashu Maru (and the eventual War trilogy), I think T/T'P will be together. It's very clear to me that Margaret Clark likes these two characters together and has a plan for them. She's said as much at conventions. I think she knows where this arc is going and she and these writers are working to make the journey to that point interesting. Meanwhile, Trip is no back alive, and he's going to have a lifespan as long as T'Pol's and we know he's still alive when the 'welders are working on the NCC-1701' and he and T'Pol have declared their love and everyone else on the NX-01 knows they love each other too. And hell, I'm interested in what happens with this whole proto-Federation, and Section 31, and Terra Prime and all the rest. To me, that last season showed so much promise, that I'm just glad we're getting to see it continued in some way. I know it's not to everyone's tastes, so fair play to you all. I accept and appreciate that.

And may I just say: I'm not saying this as ANY kind of counter argument to CX's post, but rather simply to explain WHY I like the relaunch, and can live with the angst. So please let's not get into a contentious debate over it. I truly wish things had played out on the series differently, but they didn't and so I simply enjoy how the relaunch is getting around it. And I know angst isn't everyone's taste, but I guess I don't mind it. I do really like how several writers around here have gotten around it, and written several stories showing a different take. I LOVE Endeavor - wish it was continued more regularly, but I know it's a lot of work. Believe me, my own writing has suffered from not having enough time to get it all done.

CX, you made great points and glad to have you posting them. Seems like it's been a while since we've all been around these threads talking, and it feels like old times.