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I doubt it, but he might assume all young human males are like that. T'Pol, after all, thought they needed to get laid on Risa to maintain efficiency. I can't remember what Kov's preconceptions were, but they were pretty wild too.

That being said, it REALLY doesn't make sense for him to let her go back to that unless he's from a culture that doesn't care a whit about marital fidelity, and nothing about Vulcan society that we have seen suggests that. This is why I still think the political alliance explanation is the only one that makes sense.

Aquarius wrote:Would Koss have cause to know Trip's "reputation"?

Depends. I tend to go either way in that regard. As Alelou points out, both T'Pol and Kov seemed to have misconceptions about human sex drives, and in both of the examples I listed - Ah'Lenn and Fishstick - there are extenuating circumstances that make it believable for Trip's "reputation" to have preceded him. As the first human male to "get pregnant" and to have faced the scorn of Klingons (who don't strike me as very circumspect about what they discuss), I can easily see his name being known for this as well as some theorizing as to how he got in the "family way." With Fishstick, she's royalty, and I find it very unlikely that the rumors don't make their way through Starfleet at warp speed, and from there, to the Vulcans who look at it as yet another example of how far humanity still has to go. So, if Koss & Co. are actually doing any research about T'Pol, they'd have to hear about him.

But I can also go the other way, and buy that he's totally and completely ignorant of who Tucker is. (Remember my less than stellar opinion about him.)

Alelou wrote:That being said, it REALLY doesn't make sense for him to let her go back to that unless he's from a culture that doesn't care a whit about marital fidelity, and nothing about Vulcan society that we have seen suggests that. This is why I still think the political alliance explanation is the only one that makes sense.

The political alliance would make sense if Koss' family actually got something out of the marriage as opposed to simply being linked with Vulcan's most visible renegade citizen, which is why, utter lack of canonical evidence aside, I have to go with the Syrannite connection (but even that has some holes throughout.) Unless I misunderstood your point and you meant the "Koss' family are Syrannites or at least sympathetic to them" when you wrote political alliance?

Alas...

Rigil Kent wrote:

Alelou wrote:That being said, it REALLY doesn't make sense for him to let her go back to that unless he's from a culture that doesn't care a whit about marital fidelity, and nothing about Vulcan society that we have seen suggests that. This is why I still think the political alliance explanation is the only one that makes sense.

The political alliance would make sense if Koss' family actually got something out of the marriage as opposed to simply being linked with Vulcan's most visible renegade citizen, which is why, utter lack of canonical evidence aside, I have to go with the Syrannite connection (but even that has some holes throughout.) Unless I misunderstood your point and you meant the "Koss' family are Syrannites or at least sympathetic to them" when you wrote political alliance?

Alas...

Yes, I would assume that at least one of Koss's parents sympathizes with the Syrannites or at least despises V'Las and wants to give T'Les political cover. But I would also think that you generally make marriage arrangements for your children with people you like and respect -- so perhaps there is desire to demonstrate loyalty to T'Pol's father, if nothing else. Suppose Koss's father and T'Pol's father served together at one point and one feels a debt of gratitude to the other?

But why the threat then in "Breaking the Ice"? That's where it falls apart for me in terms of Koss' family being good guys. I'm more likely to think they were just trying to cover all their bets - if V'Las emerges triumphant, they can say they were trying to control the damage T'Pol was causing out there with the marriage, but she didn't cooperate. If he falls, as he did, they can say they were providing cover for T'Les (even though she kind of threw that aside when she ran off to the desert.)

Gah. My brain hurts. Stupid plot holes.

As to the reason the marriage was dissolved, I still prefer this fic that Ragua wrote from Soval's POV that had him figure out the bond beforehand and then decide to have a few words with Koss...

Rigil Kent wrote:But why the threat then in "Breaking the Ice"? That's where it falls apart for me in terms of Koss' family being good guys. I'm more likely to think they were just trying to cover all their bets - if V'Las emerges triumphant, they can say they were trying to control the damage T'Pol was causing out there with the marriage, but she didn't cooperate. If he falls, as he did, they can say they were providing cover for T'Les (even though she kind of threw that aside when she ran off to the desert.)
<snip>
As to the reason the marriage was dissolved, I still prefer this fic that Ragua wrote from Soval's POV that had him figure out the bond beforehand and then decide to have a few words with Koss...

T'Les wasn't in trouble in "Breaking the Ice." But I agree, it's either a plot hole or a mystery.

I like that story by Ragua, too. But then, I probably like ALL stories by Ragua.

The only political alliance that would benefit the family would be if Koss marries T'Pol then the family would have her Clan's weight behind him in his political Ambitions. Koss now being a member o f the Clan by way of Marriage.

I still cannot buy this junk about t'Pol being blamed for the Destruction of the Monestary. It was Archers fault. Certainly he must have spoke out about that. Besides. It is eveident that the Entire Vulcan Government, the VHC, the higest levels of the Church and the Monks all agreed to put the listening post in P'Jem. doubt if they would have worried about it being dishonorable. Just that it made good defensive sense. Those whould be just as much to blame for putting the lisening post in the Monestary as T'Pol was following orders. A plot hole. How could the government go after T'Pol when all she had to do was to remind the Vulcan public that it was a combined decision to put the listening post in the monestary.

Rigil Kent wrote:Gah. My brain hurts. Stupid plot holes.

And you wnder why ENT is not my fav. Well at least the bad ones in TNG, VOY, and TOS usually made me laugh my head off. Nothing was funny about Home, not even a giggle. But you make me laugh Rigil.

But I do have a conspiracy theory as to why T'Pol wasn't dragged off Enterprise by the hair in Breaking The Ice, Koss' family had no idea V'Las was going to be a Rommie, or declare war on Andoria, so they thought they had more time to do their undercover Syrranite stuff than they actually did, maybe 10 years instead of 2. Oh well life is shocking isn't it.

Rigil Kent wrote:Or we can just admit it's sloppy writing and they hadn't thought that far ahead because honestly? Hollywood very rarely does think that far ahead with their plots.

It was clear during the summer of 2004 when spoiler script pieces began to "magically" appear in my mailbox, that TPTB were going create "drama" and put the whole TnT thing in the back burner in favour of Coto's lets save Trek. When Koss appeared on stage I found myself disliking the plot, but I have never felt anything, neither positive nor negative, for Koss as an individual. There were nothing telling who he was, what his sympathies were or what his goals were. There was nothing. The plot was full of holes and just there to break TnT apart and there are more believable ways to do that, if angst is what you want.

T'Les is a lot like my mum so I'm not sure what to think really. I harbour a great deal of anger towards my mum but she's still the only mother I have. It's the same for T'Pol. My mum could easily have done the exact same thing as T'Les did, as would my grandmother. I would never dream of doing something like that to my children though. There's been a significant social change the past 50 years in this neighbourhood, a change that apparently hadn't happened in Vulcan society in the 2150's, and I can't say I'm surprised because it is based on arranged marriages. I find arranged marriages among Vulcans logical considering the pon farr thing. It's quite logical that you arrange marriages as soon as possible to ensure that people don't have to die when they come of age. I wouldn't want to leave it to chance if I knew it could mean the death of a child. However, this blackmailed marriage thing? Stinks bad plot.

Ulva wrote:It was clear during the summer of 2004 when spoiler script pieces began to "magically" appear in my mailbox, that TPTB were going create "drama" and put the whole TnT thing in the back burner in favour of Coto's lets save Trek.

Boy did he fail! I doubt there's ever going to be another televised Trek. Especially since Paramount gave the thing to Abrams and his new AU. Not that it's not a great AU, but the glory days are well and truly dead. Like Stargate, .

Ulva wrote:T'Les is a lot like my mum so I'm not sure what to think really. I harbour a great deal of anger towards my mum but she's still the only mother I have. It's the same for T'Pol. My mum could easily have done the exact same thing as T'Les did, as would my grandmother. I would never dream of doing something like that to my children though. There's been a significant social change the past 50 years in this neighbourhood, a change that apparently hadn't happened in Vulcan society in the 2150's, and I can't say I'm surprised because it is based on arranged marriages.

I can't say I have any anger for T'Les. Nor do I really blame the marriage traditions of the culture. The situation of Home was not something typical. I truly believe everyone was just in a terrible situation dealing with it as best they could with the information they each had. And I can see why T'Les was freaked out by the idea her baby girl wanted a human man. She had no clue who he was, T'Pol never even mentioned him in her letters.

Ulva wrote:I find arranged marriages among Vulcans logical considering the pon farr thing. It's quite logical that you arrange marriages as soon as possible to ensure that people don't have to die when they come of age. I wouldn't want to leave it to chance if I knew it could mean the death of a child. However, this blackmailed marriage thing? Stinks bad plot.

Thank you for saying this! There's a huge difference in Vulcan arranged marriages and some human culture's ideas on the subject. Vulcans have it because it saves lives. Vulcans will have Pon Farr regardless of how much sex they have. And considering their history both before, and after, Surak it's the most practical and ethical way to handle it.

As to to "blackmail" thing. I think that they needed to add exactly what the situation was. What did T'Les do not just what she "didn't do"? Why was the government still targeting her after she retired? How did Koss' family factor in this? Was Koss given a choice with his own actions? I could think of dozens of more questions which should have been answered.

That said, I actually liked the angst. Much better than the Trellium D surprise with no resolution.

Coto made an honest effort, that much can be said. It was too late though. We were lucky to even get a 4th season. ENT was going down already by the end of S1 and S2 was the infamous nail in the coffin in the long run.

I think that they needed to add exactly what the situation was.

No really.

Oh I agree Coto tried. But the golden days are over.

Not sure if that last part was supposed to be literal or not. I'm pretty dense.

You hit the nail on the head with that sentence, that's all.

Oh okay! This is fun!

I use irony, but I don't use it to hurt other posters. If someone is in danger of receiving a zinger, I try to leave instead of actually zing them. TPTB however are legal targets.