New story by BnB and Distracted

[blacknblue]

Some of them anyway

[hth2k]

Question- Should we or should we not continue this series?

I should think that would be an obvious yes.

Is there enough interest?

Appears to be.

If so, are there any particular details or questions that people are
particularly interested in?

Some obvious questions,

What is Daniels background? Spotting an experienced Vulcan operative would indicate training in this field.

Why is he on the Andorial ship and what is his real purpose? (Who is he working for?)

What happens next?

What are the rammifications?

What would be the logical reaction to the Orions taking Vulcan citizens as slaves and killing others

Answer, demonstrate why such a pursuit would not be wise or profitible in the future.
(What would result in Orions never taking a Vulcan again?)
Speeches decrying these actions?
Letters of complaint?
Political resolutions?
Picketing?
Public protest?
Diplomatic consultation and negotiation?
Embargos?
Sanctions?
Publicity campaign?
Holding their breath?
Giving them just a few Vulcans from time to time so the rest seem safe?
Holding up a document pledging peace inour time?
Blame Bush?
Blame Clinton?
or perhaps something more immediate and direct?

HtH

All else being equal all politicians are liars and thieves and will steal you blind while persuading you they are only trying to help you.

[blacknblue]

What would be the logical reaction to the Orions taking Vulcan citizens as slaves and killing others

Answer, demonstrate why such a pursuit would not be wise or profitible in the future.
(What would result in Orions never taking a Vulcan again?)
Speeches decrying these actions?
Letters of complaint?
Political resolutions?
Picketing?
Public protest?
Diplomatic consultation and negotiation?
Embargos?
Sanctions?
Publicity campaign?
Holding their breath?
Giving them just a few Vulcans from time to time so the rest seem safe?
Holding up a document pledging peace inour time?
Blame Bush?
Blame Clinton?
or perhaps something more immediate and direct?

HtH

All else being equal all politicians are liars and thieves and will steal you blind while persuading you they are only trying to help you.

I kept remembering the Vulcan response to having T'Pol and Archer kidnapped on Coridan during the Season One episode "Shadows of P'Jem". As you recall, the Vulcan commander immediately organized an assault force and launched a heavily armed attack against the kidnappers, killing them right and left without mercy or hesitation. There were corpses everywhere.

From startrek.com (emphasis added):

...Shran explains that the Andorians are in league with the Coridan rebels, supporting their fight against the Vulcan-backed government, a government he claims to be corrupt. But since the P'Jem incident, Shran has lost sleep over feeling indebted to Archer, so he wants to secure the captain's freedom from the rebels. Shran and Tholos have a plan to break Archer and T'Pol out of the rebel compound, but they would be vastly outnumbered, so they let Tucker and Reed have their weapons back and come along.

The humans and Andorians work together to overcome the guards and infiltrate the rebel compound. Just when they are about to reach Archer and T'Pol, the place is also raided by heavily armed Vulcan commandos, led by Sopek. Suddenly the Enterprise crewmen and Andorians are caught in massive crossfire between the Coridans and the Vulcans...

From my recorded copy of the episode, the Vulcan officer, Sopek, tells Trip that the logical thing to do is strike hard at the kidnappers in order to show them that kidnapping their people does not pay. He explains that Vulcans do not negotiate with terrorists.

[JadziaKathryn]

From my recorded copy of the episode, the Vulcan officer, Sopek, tells Trip that the logical thing to do is strike hard at the kidnappers in order to show them that kidnapping their people does not pay. He explains that Vulcans do not negotiate with terrorists.

Which fits nicely with Episode 1. I wonder - will the Vulcans will be able to track down any more of their people who were sold in slavery elsewhere?

[CX]

That's actually one of the problems I had with ENT's portrayal of the Vulcans though. I have a very hard time buying that an otherwise peaceful and philisophical people who pride themselves on their logic and personal detachment from pretty much everything would adopt a "kill everything!" mentality. These people don't like to eat meat because it means killing an animal and they see eating meat as an act of savagery for crying out loud.

[JadziaKathryn]

Ah, but the cows (or sehlat or what have you) never kidnapped a fellow Vulcan.

Besides, it's draped in logic. That covers a multitude of flaws. They can say, justifiably to an extent, that it will prevent future kidnappings, even if there's a part of them out for revenge that they won't acknowledge, maybe even to themselves. It always made sense to me, anyhow.

[Asso]

That's actually one of the problems I had with ENT's portrayal of the Vulcans though. I have a very hard time buying that an otherwise peaceful and philisophical people who pride themselves on their logic and personal detachment from pretty much everything would adopt a "kill everything!" mentality. These people don't like to eat meat because it means killing an animal and they see eating meat as an act of savagery for crying out loud.

From T'Pol to Spock, time has passed.
And then... I don't think Vulcans and Humans are too different. Regarding savagery and... other stuff.

[pookha]

pride themselves on their logic and personal detachment from pretty much everything would adopt a "kill everything!" mentality.

must have missed journy to babel


MCCOY: Well, from the nature and location of the break, I'd say the killer knew exactly where to apply pressure to snap the neck instantly.
KIRK: Who aboard would have that knowledge?
SPOCK: Vulcans. On Vulcan, the method is called tal-shaya. It was considered a merciful form of execution in ancient times.

SPOCK: Vulcans do not approve of violence.
KIRK: You're saying he couldn't have done it?
SPOCK: No, Captain. I'm merely saying it would be illogical to kill without reason.

KIRK: But if he had a reason, could he have done it?
SPOCK: If there were a reason, my father is quite capable of killing. Logically and efficiently.

[hth2k]

Consider the Vulcans will thoroughly question everyone on the station. Thus they have a good deal of information on how and where the Orions operate.

There are also the repaitriated Vulcans that will share their experiences. This may well suffice to instill a terrible resolve in the Vulcan fovernment, military, and civilization.

Say they turn the "innocents" loose with a message that Vulcans will destroy everything in their path to recovering all those takes sold or not. Should they also promise to destroy everything associated with the Orion trade in the process. Assuming any more are killed they will simply destroy everything and put a bounty on all Orions. my guess would be that it would not take long for the Orions to realize what a mess they are in. They may even work to recover all those taken that are still alive and return them in an attempt to stem the tide. Facing total war and annihilation by a superior enemy righteously offended might gibe one motivation. It may well take some time before the Orions realize exactly what they have done and the potential cost. It all comes down to economics for the slavers. The Orions may think their continued survival is good business and rapid destruction and extinction is not.

What happens when the Vulcans dispatch a small, 2 followed by 4 followed by 8, task group to Orion space to be followed by a full fledged war fleet? Figure 16 followed by 32 followed by 64..., Might that get some attention? Consider what 2 ships were able to accomplish. With every stop along their way to Orion central more of the tapistry unravels. Apply pressure at multiple points and from multiple directions with reenforcements close behind.

Might ruin someone's day.

HtH

All politics comes down to money. Follow the money.

[CX]

pride themselves on their logic and personal detachment from pretty much everything would adopt a "kill everything!" mentality.

must have missed journy to babel


MCCOY: Well, from the nature and location of the break, I'd say the killer knew exactly where to apply pressure to snap the neck instantly.
KIRK: Who aboard would have that knowledge?
SPOCK: Vulcans. On Vulcan, the method is called tal-shaya. It was considered a merciful form of execution in ancient times.

SPOCK: Vulcans do not approve of violence.
KIRK: You're saying he couldn't have done it?
SPOCK: No, Captain. I'm merely saying it would be illogical to kill without reason.

KIRK: But if he had a reason, could he have done it?
SPOCK: If there were a reason, my father is quite capable of killing. Logically and efficiently.

Actually, I did see it. Two things: 1) it was considered a merciful form of execution in ancient times. 2) Vulcans will kill when it is logical to do so. Is revenge a logical reason to kill? These people don't consider feeding themselves with the food nature has provided them in their harsh environment a logical reason to kill.

[blacknblue]

But retrieving kidnapped Vulcan slaves is not revenge CX. Or that is not the primary reason. Yes, there is an unacknowledged undercurrent of anger in all of the Vulcans involved in the task force. But you are putting more weight on revenge as a motive than it merits. Their primary motive is to get their people back. Their secondary motive is to ensure that it doesn't happen again. Revenge is considered illogical. They can't help it if some small vestige of their (suppressed) emotional nature still cries out for payback. Just because they are Vulcan doesn't make them machines you know. If you asked any member of the task force, they would all deny that revenge had anything to do with it.

For example, the recidivist rate for dead criminals is right at 0%. Is this not logical?

[evcake]

Making an example of the Orions seems quite logical to me.

To paraphrase one of my favorite authors, it is impossible to teach some people the error of their ways without hitting them as hard and as often as you possibly can.

[CX]

Except that here the Vulcans are displaying a willingness to use lethal force against people who might not have even known anything about there being any Vulcans on board, let alone committing any crimes against them. It seems to be spelled out to me that the Vulcans probably would've simply destroyed that Andorian ship if Daniels hadn't been aboard it, simply for the fact that 1) it was an Andorian ship and 2) it was at the Orion station. You also basically came right out and said that while your Vulcan agent had the option to use less than lethal force while still accomplishing his mission, he specifically took the time to change the setting on his weapon to kill. Also not very logical on his part is his attempt to kill that Orion boss outright instead of using him to gather intel on the people who conducted the attack on the colony ship to begin with, and to find out what happened to the other Vulcan citizens. Thus it comes off as being a lot more about revenge than even about recovering all of their citizens who may still be left alive somewhere deeper in Orion space. It also turns Vulcan justice into Vulcan "justice".

[blacknblue]

Bear in mind that this takes place less than a year after the discovery of the Kir'Shara. Senek is an agent of the old school. He was trained and spent his career under the High Command. Under V'Las. He doesn't think or react the way the Vulcans of Spock's time do. And he REALLY doesn't think like the Vulcans of TNG or DS9. The Second Vulcan Reformation that was triggered by the rediscovery of Surak's original writings has barely gotten underway at this point. Senek is not a young man, he is a battle hardened veteran who has spent his entire adult life living, working and fighting the Andorians under the standards of the High Command and the V'Las administration. Giving that fact, his restraint is surprising.

Remember that V'Las ordered his own people (the Syrannites) to be subject to bombing. And his men obeyed without question. Remember that soldier who captured T'Pol when they were chasing the Kir'Shara, who used to serve under her, despised her for her weakness in joining the Syrannites. Vulcan's in ENT time do not react the same way that Spock did, and nowhere near the way the later Vulcan's do.

Remember that V'Las ordered the Vulcan fleet to make a stealth preemptive attack against Andoria on trumped up evidence that they might have a Xindi type weapon, and the other members of the High Command did not stop him. His ship commanders obeyed him. Reluctantly maybe, but they did it. He ordered them to fire on Enterprise, and they did it. These Vulcans are not pacifists. They may claim to prefer peace, but they are not the kind of people who hesitate to use force when they think it is called for.

T'Pol never hesitated to shoot when she thought it was necessary did she?

[evcake]

I personally would like to see the Orians restricted to their own little corner of the universe. Let them sell themselves to each other for a while.