Archer as Captain

[WarpGirl]

Pretty well put opinions Misplaced

And yet, you were the one who suggested they make Hayes the XO, were you not? Does it make any sense to put a green officer into the role of 2IC in a situation as dire as this one? T'Pol was a know quantity, one that had earned the respect of the ENT crew, so displacing her (and, for that matter, Tucker, who also outranks Hayes, or Reed, who is the security officer) to put a gropo with questionable space legs in the XO position would be certain doom.

Yes I did. A. T'Pol's a civilian, the most she can be considered in an official military capacity is a contractor. And And that is something I know a lot about! Google Pinebrook, and when you see a defense company, that's my family. My aunt and uncle to be specific.

B. Trip's job had to be in engineering, let's face it nobody else in SF was good enough at MacGyvering, and considering what little information they got about the expanse before they left there was no way he could have been doing 2 jobs at once.

C. Malcolm might have made a good FO. However, his skills were focused on defense not search-and-destroy. (Before we knew he was Section 31 that is ) Up until the Xindi it was pretty much hit-and-run stuff, no prolonged engagements, certainly never outright attacks against enemies.

D. Finally my thoughts were that Hayes would be there to "teach" Archer the basic fundementals, and help plan stratagy. In other words play tutor, and show the guy how to play offense.

Hey they wrote it the way they wrote it. I certainly didn't get paid for it. I don't think I would have taken the money.

Now I am going to bed, (hopefully) but I will say there is one good thing about ST's "military" no frat-rules! Not that they aren't necessary IRL, but... On TV it's frustrating!

[Misplaced]

Me, I've always assumed that the writers were just not quite able to figure out what they wanted Archer to be. I mean, you can mostly paint all of the other captains with that sole sentence, but Archer ... he was inconsistent thanks to the writing. If they had did a better job at identifying what made Archer Archer, then it wouldn't have seemed so weird.

And I didn't know your hubbie joined the Army. Hoo-ah!

I can agree with that assessment. It makes sense given the inconsistencies there were with him throughout the show.

And yep. Active Duty. He's still in AIT (went MI - 35T) and will be for nearly a year. My brother is an 11B set to leave sometime in the near future for another tour in the sandbox. My bro-in-law is in the medical field (LPN I think -- don't know the number) stationed at West Point right now. 'Course he did deploy shortly after 9/11, so it's not all been roses and lollipops for him. Though my brother likes to tease him. Can't remember the name he calls those that are in non-combat MOS's. LOL

I actually read to my husband your little snippet in your profile about why you aren't working for Uncle Sam anymore (or one of the reasons, anyway). He totally LMAO'd... and said, "Hooah, mornings suck!"

Anyway... back to Archer now. LOL

[Rigil Kent]

Yes I did. A. T'Pol's a civilian, the most she can be considered in an official military capacity is a contractor.

One - Starfleet is not the military; they make a point in season 2's closer that the MACOs are the military. Two - in the original script of the season 3 opener, they did actually make a point in the first VNP scene that she had been given a Starfleet field commission by Archer, so she was technically a member of Starfleet at the time. Still not sure exactly why they cut that line out, but it was there so her remarks to Trip & Jon in "Countdown" about formalizing her association with Starfleet (and then later receiving SFC's official okay in season 3) means that she was technically 2IC and not just a contractor.

Trip's job had to be in engineering, let's face it nobody else in SF was good enough at MacGyvering, and considering what little information they got about the expanse before they left there was no way he could have been doing 2 jobs at once.

Not really relevant as he was originally slated to be the XO before T'Pol joined the crew.

Malcolm might have made a good FO. However, his skills were focused on defense not search-and-destroy. (Before we knew he was Section 31 that is ) Up until the Xindi it was pretty much hit-and-run stuff, no prolonged engagements, certainly never outright attacks against enemies.

We'll have to agree to disagree there. He struck me as having pretty much the same type of personality that Hayes possessed and, from what I saw, he wasn't that great at improvisation. The XO job is one that would require a lot of interfacing with the crew and, frankly, Reed sucked nearly as bad as T'Pol did at that. So the people skills would once again fall to Trip. I actually think Reed would kind of suck as XO unless it was to a really outgoing captain.

Finally my thoughts were that Hayes would be there to "teach" Archer the basic fundementals, and help plan stratagy. In other words play tutor, and show the guy how to play offense.

But that's not the job of the XO. The way I always heard it, the CO comes up with the plan and the XO makes it happen (well, actually, the 1st Sergeant or 1st Shirt or Master Chief or whatever makes it happen, but he coordinates with the XO.) Again, displacing an already established command structure (T'Pol-2IC, Tucker-3IC, Reed-4IC) for an unknown quantity (Hayes) is terminal for the success of the mission, particularly since he actually appears to have less experience than those three.

I will say there is one good thing about ST's "military" no frat-rules! Not that they aren't necessary IRL, but... On TV it's frustrating!

Actually, I'm pretty sure they did reference some 'no frat' rules early on in ENT (was it during "Breaking the Ice" and the boyfriend/girlfriend question Archer fielded from that class of kids? Can't recall.) But comparatively, they were certainly more lax than a real military.

Can't remember the name he calls those that are in non-combat MOS's.

POG? (Short for People Other than Grunts) REMF?

And yeah, mornings do suck.

[Misplaced]

POG is the one. Haven't heard REMF. My husband did teach me recently about "Bravo Foxtrot" though. LOL Oh what a wide, wonderful and disturbing world the Army is. LOL

I have Trip as the XO in my Reflections series. And the Chief Engineer. Since it was going to be his original job in the RU before T'Pol came along. I figured with a crew compliment of less than 100, it is quite possible for Trip to do both. (Though, in Dark Echoes I'm hoping to show some delegation of some of his responsibilities.)

Again: Good leader = lots of charisma and loyalty.

[WarpGirl]

One - Starfleet is not the military; they make a point in season 2's closer that the MACOs are the military.

Jeeze Rigil Every time I make the statement SF is not the military, someone inevitably yells at me! Now the one time I'm goin-with-the-flow you call me on it. <pouting> Where's the cute, sweet, little pouting smiley when you need it! So I'll just say if I had written season 3 the MACO's would have been hardcore Marines, and not Starfleet's toy soldiers/

Two - in the original script of the season 3 opener, they did actually make a point in the first VNP scene that she had been given a Starfleet field commission by Archer, so she was technically a member of Starfleet at the time. Still not sure exactly why they cut that line out,

Can't be blamed for not knowing something I never heard of before. But still it was cut out.

but it was there so her remarks to Trip & Jon in "Countdown" about formalizing her association with Starfleet (and then later receiving SFC's official okay in season 3) means that she was technically 2IC and not just a contractor.

OK You've lost me, she has to formalize her position in SF but she's already technically a member, and 2IC... Trying to figure out how that would work at 0326 is just not going to happen.

Not really relevant as he was originally slated to be the XO before T'Pol joined the crew.

Sorry, how is that not relevant? Earth wasn't at war at the time when Enterprise was comissioned. It wasn't going through a region of space reported to tear ships apart, and people too for that matter. Just by reading the sketchy information they had would lead any sane person to conclude the engineer has to stay in engineering.

We'll have to agree to disagree there. He struck me as having pretty much the same type of personality that Hayes possessed and, from what I saw, he wasn't that great at improvisation. The XO job is one that would require a lot of interfacing with the crew and, frankly, Reed sucked nearly as bad as T'Pol did at that. So the people skills would once again fall to Trip. I actually think Reed would kind of suck as XO unless it was to a really outgoing captain.

True enough, but I was just really sticking to the actual find and destroy the weapon mission. Plus it probably would have helped integrate the MACO's and SF better. As for the skill set of the characters... Darn writers! For all the paper work and stuff, I figure T'Pol would keep on doing it. The science officer is supposed to multitask in Trek, it doesn't work out so well for a ChEng. Don't ask me why... I didn't make the rules.

But that's not the job of the XO. The way I always heard it, the CO comes up with the plan and the XO makes it happen (well, actually, the 1st Sergeant or 1st Shirt or Master Chief or whatever makes it happen, but he coordinates with the XO.) Again, displacing an already established command structure (T'Pol-2IC, Tucker-3IC, Reed-4IC) for an unknown quantity (Hayes) is terminal for the success of the mission, particularly since he actually appears to have less experience than those three.

Funny, the way my relatives talk... The plans are drawn up by the big wigs and stratagy guys, sent to the commander in the field, where the commander throws a very "officer like fit" does what he can to make sense of it and make it work, then carts it off to his XO, and the XO throws an "officer like fit" and then coordinates with his people, who grumble about the XO "very politely" and then when its finally all done the grunts get their orders, and they grumble about the officers and big wigs, and stratagists in the tiny room where the plans are made. But what do I know? I just hear a lot of heresay.

In any case, again this is Trek, you gotta allow for some leeway because MACO or SF or whatever the military is nothing like the one we know. So since this is the first actual major war in who knows how many decades, rolls are going to have to be re-defined. I'm just attempting to put something out there.

Actually, I'm pretty sure they did reference some 'no frat' rules early on in ENT (was it during "Breaking the Ice" and the boyfriend/girlfriend question Archer fielded from that class of kids? Can't recall.) But comparatively, they were certainly more lax than a real military.

I believe the answer was at Captain's discresion which is like not how it is! Although maybe it should be, people mess around anyway. Again a lot of family gossip.

And yeah, mornings do suck.

AMEN! Especially, when your brain refuses to let you sleep. At least that's what all the scans said.

[Rigil Kent]

Can't be blamed for not knowing something I never heard of before. But still it was cut out.

So? Lots of stuff is pseudo-canon, but never actually showed up, and since it actually makes her otherwise tenuous position more palatable, it works for me. Otherwise, how exactly is it that SFC makes her the actual captain in the Magic Reset Button episode if she's not at least semi-official?

but it was there so her remarks to Trip & Jon in "Countdown" about formalizing her association with Starfleet (and then later receiving SFC's official okay in season 3) means that she was technically 2IC and not just a contractor.

OK You've lost me, she has to formalize her position in SF but she's already technically a member, and 2IC... Trying to figure out how that would work at 0326 is just not going to happen.

No, it's pretty clear. The field commission that Archer gave her has to be formalized by Starfleet Command once they return to Sol space. It is at the judgment of the admiralty as to whether they will acknowledge the commission and determine it is legitimate. Hence, "formalize."

Not really relevant as he was originally slated to be the XO before T'Pol joined the crew.

Sorry, how is that not relevant? Earth wasn't at war at the time when Enterprise was comissioned. It wasn't going through a region of space reported to tear ships apart, and people too for that matter. Just by reading the sketchy information they had would lead any sane person to conclude the engineer has to stay in engineering.

It's not relevant because just going off of seasons 1 and 2, wherever they went, they were encountering a situation on a weekly basis where the ship was about to go boom. Boldly going and all that. You're looking at the Expanse mission with the benefit of hindsight - at the time, for all Starfleet Command & Archer knew, the Delphic Expanse really wasn't that bad and the hyperbole the Vulcans used to describe it was yet another example of them trying to manipulate the humans into not going somewhere they (the Vulcans) didn't want to them to go. Truthfully, the only really relevant in this situation is Tucker's state of mind, which you actually didn't bring up. He frankly wasn't in the right mindset and, if his skills weren't essential, it would have been a whole lot more logical to leave him behind.

True enough, but I was just really sticking to the actual find and destroy the weapon mission.

What could he do better as XO than as WEPS in this case? I can't think of anything and, in fact, suspect making him the XO would only split his attention and make it more difficult to accomplish his task.

Plus it probably would have helped integrate the MACO's and SF better.

How does it accomplish that? We already saw that Reed was territorial in regards to the MACOs so if he's in the #2 spot, it's only going to get worse every time Hayes says or does something that makes Reed feel defensive.

For all the paper work and stuff, I figure T'Pol would keep on doing it.

Why? You've already decided she's just a civilian contractor, so why should she be doing Reed's paperwork in this theoretical? For that matter, what does it do to the morale of the ship to effectively demote her (and frankly, Tucker too) in order to effectively promote Reed who hasn't exactly shown a whole lot of command talent? Bad, bad idea.

The science officer is supposed to multitask in Trek, it doesn't work out so well for a ChEng. Don't ask me why... I didn't make the rules.

And I cannot possibly disagree with you more. The ChEng in Trek is such a multi-tasker that it isn't funny. Not only is he or she the warp reactor specialist, they're always damage control and the transporter repair guy and the sanitation engineer and the all-around Mister Fixit. Very much a multi-tasker.

Funny, the way my relatives talk... The plans are drawn up by the big wigs and stratagy guys, sent to the commander in the field, where the commander throws a very "officer like fit" does what he can to make sense of it and make it work, then carts it off to his XO, and the XO throws an "officer like fit" and then coordinates with his people, who grumble about the XO "very politely" and then when its finally all done the grunts get their orders, and they grumble about the officers and big wigs, and stratagists in the tiny room where the plans are made.

Yeah. The captain decides what needs to be done, the XO decides how. And then, the grunts actually do it. That's what I said.

I believe the answer was at Captain's discresion which is like not how it is!

In the modern military, no, but obviously that is the case in the evolved Starfleet, which is pseudo-military at best. But that doesn't mitigate the fact they were referenced.

[Misplaced]

Actually, I'm pretty sure they did reference some 'no frat' rules early on in ENT (was it during "Breaking the Ice" and the boyfriend/girlfriend question Archer fielded from that class of kids? Can't recall.) But comparatively, they were certainly more lax than a real military.

I believe the answer was at Captain's discresion which is like not how it is! Although maybe it should be, people mess around anyway. Again a lot of family gossip.

Direct quote from the episode (Archer speaking to class): " 'Is dating allowed on Enterprise?' Well, it's not discouraged, but there isn't a lot of privacy on a starship. Most of our crew share quarters with at least one other person, so it wouldn't exactly be practical. But if two crewmembers decide that they really like each other there are a lot of places they can go to look at the stars."

Sounds like either a). he was politely evading the question or b). there are no "no frat" rules in Starfleet. I just watched "Rajin" tonight where Trip brings up the rumors going around on the ship to T'Pol to which she replies: "We're both senior officers. If we were pursuing a romantic relationship it wouldn't be Lieutenant Reed's concern, would it?"

Now, you can decide that it's just crappy writing from the showrunners if you want... but if you're going to go with canon (however much you might disagree with it), considering that I'd expect T'Pol to be the biggest rule-upholder of the lot... sounds like "No Frat" is non-existant in SF.

So far it seems to be a fanon thing, no matter how logical it is (especially to those of us who understand the military fairly well).

[honeybee]

The only specific rule we know if is that you can't date a superior officer, which does not contradict T'Pol's assertion that she and Trip can date since they are the same rank.
This rule is talked about in "Home" when it is made clear that Archer and Hernandez broke up when he was promoted to Captain but can rekindle the romance now that she's been promoted.

[Alelou]

Going temporarily off-topic

3. I didn't know that ma'am insinuates an older age to the person adressed. That's new.

Therefore my most sincere apology.

WG is perhaps betraying her NY roots. When I was growing up no adult Southern female would take offense at ma'm as a polite form of address. I was taught to call any adult female that, and I do believe WG would qualify as an adult.

Got me in trouble when I moved north and suddenly all these women were scowling at me for being (I thought) polite.

But perhaps the South is changing, since WG has been living in VA and yet was still offended.

Going back on-topic:

T'Pol's attempt to scold Trip about getting involved with Amanda as a violation of non-frat rules in "Harbinger" suggests that they do at least have some sensitivity about dating across ranks ... and makes their eventual relationship questionable, whatever other parts of canon say. (Even if they are both commanders, T'Pol clearly has the superior position in the chain of command.)

[WarpGirl]

So? Lots of stuff is pseudo-canon, but never actually showed up, and since it actually makes her otherwise tenuous position more palatable, it works for me. Otherwise, how exactly is it that SFC makes her the actual captain in the Magic Reset Button episode if she's not at least semi-official?

Sorry I go by the theory that canon is actually what is on TV. All of the psudo-canon stuff is strictly for fanfic. That's how it works for me, but everyone has a different way of doing it.

No, it's pretty clear. The field commission that Archer gave her has to be formalized by Starfleet Command once they return to Sol space. It is at the judgment of the admiralty as to whether they will acknowledge the commission and determine it is legitimate. Hence, "formalize."

OK you'll need to educate me here a bit, in layman's terms what would have happened if SF did not acknowledge the comission, and legitimize it? How would that have effected her position? Because I'm still very confused.

It's not relevant because just going off of seasons 1 and 2, wherever they went, they were encountering a situation on a weekly basis where the ship was about to go boom. Boldly going and all that.

Well, not every week. And it's still monumentally different from the Xindi war.

You're looking at the Expanse mission with the benefit of hindsight - at the time, for all Starfleet Command & Archer knew, the Delphic Expanse really wasn't that bad and the hyperbole the Vulcans used to describe it was yet another example of them trying to manipulate the humans into not going somewhere they (the Vulcans) didn't want to them to go.

Well I'm not sure that I can look at it any other way but through hindsight... And while yes, SF Command and Archer were resisting the Vulcans advice, given the fact that they did give SF some valid intel, it was obvious that whatever they found was gonna be bad. They'd still need the ChEng to stick with Engineering.

Truthfully, in this situation is Tucker's state of mind, which you actually didn't bring up. He frankly wasn't in the right mindset and, if his skills weren't essential, it would have been a whole lot more logical to leave him behind.

Agreed! all the more reason not to have him as 2IC in this season.

What could he do better as XO than as WEPS in this case? I can't think of anything and, in fact, suspect making him the XO would only split his attention and make it more difficult to accomplish his task.

What is WEPS?

How does it accomplish that? We already saw that Reed was territorial in regards to the MACOs so if he's in the #2 spot, it's only going to get worse every time Hayes says or does something that makes Reed feel defensive.

Again 0330 when I wrote that post, my brain was turning into oatmeal. I cheerfully admit that was a screwy statement.

Bad, bad idea.

Again probably wasn't thinking clearly. Insomnia is a

And I cannot possibly disagree with you more. The ChEng in Trek is such a multi-tasker that it isn't funny. Not only is he or she the warp reactor specialist, they're always damage control and the transporter repair guy and the sanitation engineer and the all-around Mister Fixit. Very much a multi-tasker.

All of that is engineering stuff, not managing an entire ship's worth of personel in dozens of departments, going over reports, training, and dealing with supporting the Captain. Doesn't the ChEng have enough to do? Give them too much and their work will be shoddy in one area, and neither command (of the ship) or engineering is where you want any major screw-ups. It makes less sense to me to put the ChEng as 2IC, than it does just about anyone else.

Yeah. The captain decides what needs to be done, the XO decides how. And then, the grunts actually do it. That's what I said.

Well at least I'm not so brain dead that I didn't get that right. But the Captain usually gets the plans from on high IRL. At least according to my aunt who has a special nickname given to her by the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And if you don't think the name dropping is insuffrable at family gatherings...

In the modern military, no, but obviously that is the case in the evolved Starfleet, which is pseudo-military at best. But that doesn't mitigate the fact they were referenced.

Now, you can decide that it's just crappy writing from the showrunners if you want... but if you're going to go with canon (however much you might disagree with it), considering that I'd expect T'Pol to be the biggest rule-upholder of the lot... sounds like "No Frat" is non-existant in SF.

Can't it be both?

WG is perhaps betraying her NY roots. When I was growing up no adult Southern female would take offense at ma'm as a polite form of address. I was taught to call any adult female that, and I do believe WG would qualify as an adult.

Got me in trouble when I moved north and suddenly all these women were scowling at me for being (I thought) polite.

But perhaps the South is changing, since WG has been living in VA and yet was still offended.

A. Yes I've got NY roots, and yes I still feel it when people here call me ma'am. Where I'm from you don't do that until a woman is either married, or over 30. Adult or not I'm not there yet.

B. I was not angry, or offended! I'm just trying to slow down time a little. It's hard being the oldest, and not being married, having a kid, or a job because of a disability.

[Silverbullet]

Rigel, I am confused by this "field commision." I have been out of the military for a long time so things probably changed. but I had never heard of an Officer offering a field commision to a civilian. A Brevet Commision. Archer would have to ask Starfleet to issue that. he couldn't because a Brevet commision can be at any rank including Admiral.

A Battle field commision can only be offered to an enlisted person of Archers MILITARY. Actually any commision could only be offered in a military context unless it is a Diplomatic Commision. so, if Archer is offering T'POl a commision it means that Enterprise is a military ship. Which you say it is not. Do you meant that Archer petitioned Starfleet for a Brevet Commision for T'Pol? A Battle field commmision has to be aproved by higher authority ASAP. But a brevet Commision has to be approved by (Congress in todays world) rthe world government.

whatever, both Brevet and Battlefield are MILITARY commisions. If Starfleet is not military and Enterprisse is not military how can either be offered to T'Pol?

Again what is a field Commision? It still sounds like a military commision and Enterprise is not military according to you which means neither is Archer.

I am totaly confused.

[aadarshinah]

Perhaps, since the journey to The Expanse took 3 months and, presumabily, Enterprise was still in contact with Starfleet for at least part of that time, the Admiralty offered T'Pol a brevet commission after she resigned hers with the High Command, with the idea that it would only remain in effect as long as Enterprise was fighting the Xindi? Doesn't make sense why they'd still call her Subcommander if that was the case, I admit, but it came to mind.

But we're getting OT again...

[Alelou]

Did they still call her Sub-commander? I was wondering that.

[honeybee]

In the early episodes of the Season 3, she was still called Sub-Commander by everyone. I'm not sure when that changed, but eventually she was just Commander.

[aadarshinah]

My vote is towards force of habit. She was comissioned, people knew, but they'd gotten so used to it that it took a while to change...

Though you can also go for another fav of mine people are lazy and that they still called her subcommander even after she no longer was one and then, one day, one of them slipped and said "commander" when addressing her 'cause it was shorter and it ended up sticking when everyone realized she didn't care... or, at least, didn't make a fuss of it.