Archer's backstory

[Asso]

In VOY Tuvok tells a crewman, "The captain is always right, even when s/he is wrong."

Damn! To death the Captains and hurray the First Officers (above all, a certain Vulcan female) and the Engineers!

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Can you say... Nur-em-berg?

No, I say Nürn-berg!

[CoffeeCat]

^ Yah, what everyone said.

I blame the sinister space monkeys and their orbital mind control lasers ... fear them!

[CX]

In VOY Tuvok tells a crewman, "The captain is always right, even when s/he is wrong."

Seriously? They actually said that? Gah. It's no wonder I have no respect for the VOY/ENT captains if that's the mentality of the goobers in charge. So ... if Archer/Janeway decides to open fire on an unarmed transport, then s/he is right. *shakes head*

Wow, I actually forgot about that little nugget. *shakes head* Talk about a twist on the old "The Captain always knows what to do, even if he doesn't" *shakes head again*

[CoffeeCat]

^ It sounds Voyager-esque. What episode is that from?

[blacknblue]

Can you say... Nur-em-berg?

No, I say Nürn-berg!

Smartass.

[CX]

^ It sounds Voyager-esque. What episode is that from?

You mean the thing I quoted? It's from U-571 actually, and unlike the VOY bastardization of it, it's actually good advice, because one of the very worst things a CO could say in a survival situation is "I don't know". It'll kill morale and it'll kill the confidence those under your command will have in you.

[pookha]

he needed to learn to say please and thank you more often.

Captain Kangaroo's magic words. You're right, Pooka, Archer should have definitely watched old reruns of Captain Kangaroo.t.

actually it is said a lot on tos especially by kirk even to his lt's and ensigns. there was a lot of snarking disagreement ect but they also apologised and thanked each other.

as for the captain is right i havent seen that voyager or dont remember it but it sounds like a play off of kirks rep.
his crew would follow him almost every were including romulan territory though bones had a hissy fit until kirk kicked him off the bridge.

hmm i think in desert crossing watching trip almost die was something.
and while i would like to have seen follow ups to similitude and damage i still cant fault archer for his choice in damage.
it was set up as his only way out with no superior being to save him from it.
like kirk being saved by one in arena from starting a galatic war.

[Rigil Kent]

as for the captain is right i havent seen that voyager or dont remember it but it sounds like a play off of kirks rep.
his crew would follow him almost every were including romulan territory though bones had a hissy fit until kirk kicked him off the bridge.

Yeah, but Kirk actually earned that. Archer didn't. We were told that he did, but very rarely saw it. Instead, we saw him ignore his senior officers who seemed inexplicably unable to react in a realistic way when he acted stupidly.

hmm i think in desert crossing watching trip almost die was something.

Then why did he continue to treat Trip like crap? Look at how he basically left Tucker to hang in the wind while he went off to nursemaid Sidekick!Polly in The Seventh, or how he acted like the worst kind of hypocrite in Cogenitor. If he learned anything in Desert Crossing, he promptly forgot it.

and while i would like to have seen follow ups to similitude and damage i still cant fault archer for his choice in damage.
it was set up as his only way out with no superior being to save him from it.
like kirk being saved by one in arena from starting a galatic war.

That's not the point. Regardless of outcome, he committed piracy. How many Starfleet regulations did he break? What kind of moral is that teaching the young crewmen and ensigns joining? That the ends do justify the means. Now, in the future, if someone does something criminal like that for "better good", they have the Archer defense to rest on. Starfleet Command cannot allow that to happen if they're smart because it leads to stuff like torture ("Hey, there was our only way to locate X before Y happened! Jonathan Archer did it! Why are you giving me crap over it?"). Realistically, Archer would have been probably promoted to commodore and quietly urged to retire ...

That is, if the "civil rights" people don't find out what he did and demand that he be held accountable.

Once again, I reiterate that we never saw any real repercussions from his decisions, especially the bad ones. Instead, it was his crew that got shat upon while he emerged smelling like a rose. Therein lies my problem. I believe it was Churchill who said "The price of greatness is responsibility." I never saw Archer learn that lesson.

But, that's to be expected from the doofuses who thought making T'Pol a criminally negligent drug addict was a good idea, I guess.

[blacknblue]

But then, if ENT had presented things the way we all wish that it had, the series would still be on the air and in the #1 slot.

[pookha]

with both 7th and cogenitor i can flip things around and point out in archer's eyes he may have seen himself as protecting trip.
in 7th he knew this chatacter was dangerous.
back in shadows of pjemm we had trip going off after archer and tpol when they were in danger.
jon may have thought trip was going to pull that again.
i also say he may have been troubled at how easily trip can influence malcolm to do crazy things.
of course during this time trip was evolving and we later on get the trip in cease fire who is able to put aside his concerns about his friends to do what needed to be done.

in cogenitor i say archer may have known how lucky trip was not to be taken away for judgement by the vissians.
because if they had wanted to there was nothing enterprise could do to stop them.

and actually while we only get a passing comment in shockwave about how the general populace was disturbed by some of things enterprise had been involved in there were rerprecussions of pjemm beyond tpol.

In the meantime, our joint fleet operations have been suspended.

remember these dont get going again till after fusion.

as for damage look at the results if archer dosnt take the warp coil.
not just the destruction of earth but off all the species within the expanse including the illyrians.
and the expanse would have continued to expand.

so we have billions and billions of lives.

and archer at least gave the illyrians a chance.
he gave them the trellium to line their hull. without it they may never have gotten home even with the warp coil without it.

he also gave them food and other suppies.

[blacknblue]

Well, I am a cynic and a pragmatic SOB. When it comes to stealing the warp coil I am willing to cut Archer some slack. I would have done the same thing. I won't say that I would have tried to justify it though. I don't think that I would have needed to justify it. Survival is its own justification. To keep my family alive, I would be willing to deliberately kill a stranger if it were necessary. Ugly, but true. I am a father, and I realized when I picked up my first child and heard her first cry that there was nothing at all that I would not do to protect her. Nothing. At. All.

But by the same token, I can see Rigil's point. Archer should at least have been forced to go before a hearing and explained himself. Starfleet should also have made a special effort to locate and compensate the Illyrians for the loss of their warp coil, as well as voluntarily offering punitive compensation for the loss of their time and trouble. ENT just swept it all under the rug. Nobody ever pays the price for the captain's screw ups on Trek except security officers. In other words, the cops.

The Seventh was plain out stupid. Criminal negligence. Trip shuold have flat out refused to accept command unless and until he was given full information about where they were going and when they were coming back. If Archer still refused and dumped it on him, he would have been fully justified, IMO. in reporting Archer for deserting his post. Archer works for Starfleet, not the VHC.

[CX]

The Seventh made no sense to begin with. How logical is it to send someone to finish a job they couldn't do 15 years prior? Why would you send someone who you know cracked the last time they tried? Why would you send someone who isn't even a security officer anymore (must be a lot of cross-training in the VHC...)? Then, once this was out, why would T'Pol make any kind of XO anymore when she can't even shoot someone on STUN without Big!Strong!Archer there to literally hold her hand? After she had to be constantly reminded of her duty and her what her job entailed? After she essentially cracked under the pressure again?

[Rigil Kent]

God ... don't get me started on that episode...

with both 7th and cogenitor i can flip things around and point out in archer's eyes he may have seen himself as protecting trip.
in 7th he knew this chatacter was dangerous.

Uh ... what? In The Seventh, Archer abandoned his post and didn't give Trip information that he needed. What happens if Super!Archer and Sidekick!Polly and Driver!Mayweather are captured? What happens if they get killed? Who gets hammered for that? Trip does. He gets the shaft 'cause he's in command, and Archer was derelict in his duty when he jaunts off and abandons his post so the idiots-in-charge can assassinate the T'Pol character. I'm not going to comment any further on that POS episode.

in cogenitor i say archer may have known how lucky trip was not to be taken away for judgement by the vissians.
because if they had wanted to there was nothing enterprise could do to stop them.

And again, I don't see what that has to do with anything. Tucker acted exactly like Archer did in the episode immediately prior to Cogenitor ... yet it blows up in Trip's face because he's not Super!Archer. And are you forgetting how absolutely hypocritical Archer acted when he chewed out Tucker?

and actually while we only get a passing comment in shockwave about how the general populace was disturbed by some of things enterprise had been involved in there were rerprecussions of pjemm beyond tpol.

In the meantime, our joint fleet operations have been suspended.

remember these dont get going again till after fusion.

Which boils down to a very light slap on the wrist for Super!Archer (if that) while T'Pol continues to suffer the after-effects of Super!Archer's decision all the way into season 4. Nothing happened to Archer. Nothing.

as for damage look at the results if archer dosnt take the warp coil.
not just the destruction of earth but off all the species within the expanse including the illyrians.
and the expanse would have continued to expand.

so we have billions and billions of lives.

and archer at least gave the illyrians a chance.
he gave them the trellium to line their hull. without it they may never have gotten home even with the warp coil without it.

he also gave them food and other suppies.

You're either ignoring or missing my point. I'm not arguing that it was the right thing to do. I would have done it too. But that doesn't mitigate the fact that Archer committed piracy and broke numerous Starfleet regulations while doing so ... yet nothing happened to him. How many times has Trek preached that the ends don't justify the means? Yet, according to this episode, they do. It was ignored (just like the absurd trellium addiction), because there is no way that they could not punish Super!Archer for what he did.