Holy Crap!

[blacknblue]

Yup. No matter who wins now, somebody is going to make history.

Recall that Rudolph the red nosed mayor of NYC was only a lowly city mayor. He claimed to be a republican, yet he was as liberal as Bill Clinton. And I recall a lot of liberals cheering him on despite his total lack of foreign experience. Politics is weird, to paraphrase what Asso said earlier.

It's going to be a real quandry for some people now. Like my Mother, who is 77 years old. She is a lifelong Democrat and a party loyalist. but she has also spent her life fighting for women's rights and she would give her false teeth and her bifocals to help get a woman elected to the white house. She is really in pain now. On the one hand, she would feel like a traitor if she voted republican. But on the other hand, being born in 1931, she has seen and been a part of the fight for women's rights for a long time, and it would mean the world to her to get a woman into the VP position. Especially since VPs often move up to president when the big guy finishes his term(s).

I am guessing that there are a lot of people with similar problems. I also wouldn't be surprised if there weren't people with similar issues being torn between race and religious belief. White fundamentalist bigots have the advantage here, they can vote for the old white fundamentalist without any conflict. But what is a black fundamentalist bigot supposed to do? It is a real problem.

Then there are the true feminists, versus the party feminist bigots. A true feminist is going to vote for the woman candidate no matter what party she runs for. Whereas the party feminist will only vote for the woman if she runs for her own particular party. So McCain is going to split the feminist vote with this. I am going to stay inside a lot until December.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

KTR, your bummer sticker is hilarious.

Goooood! A convert!

Hey, maybe I should make a Dukat/Damar sticker? Or Damar/Weyoun? Or Founder/Weyoun? Aw chucks, all these alliances tend to shift and change from episode to episode.

Or what about Berman/Braga '08? "We screwed up Trek. Now let us screw up America!"

Sorry, a bit OT there! As for Sarah Palin, while I do have an opinion I will remain true to my stated policy of not engaging in (non-Trek related) political debate here. I will just make a shallow observation and say that I think she looks hot!

[Alelou]

Show me a "true" feminist who'll vote for a woman who wants to make abortion illegal even in the case of rape or incest and I think I might just fall over.

But no doubt there are some.

I would argue that New York Republicans like Rudy are viewed with suspicion by most other Republicans because they reflect the far more liberal mindset of the northeast and usually just can't relate to died-in-the-wool social conservatives. Like NJ Republican Christine Todd Whitman, who I think would have made a very capable VP choice but wouldn't have helped McCain with the base.

However, I also don't think McCain would have won the primaries if the base was really that focused on social issues this time around. I think they were looking for competence and expertise to deal with all our issues just like the rest of the country was.

Even Texas's Kay Bailey Hutchison would have been a better choice in my book, though I don't think she has the charisma Palin has and the association with oil wouldn't have helped. But apparently she's pro-choice too. So of course she was out of the question. Gotta keep the fundamentalists happy. I just don't see how the most passionate fundamentalists -- the ones who think women shouldn't talk in church and that the man is the woman's connection to God and that women's bodies must submit dutifully to procreation no matter what their own personal preference might be -- are really going to go for a woman who has chosen a career like this. But according to the talkings point hawkers on TV today, they're all revved up.

Guess we'll find out. This is definitely the most interesting contest in a long time!

Meanwhile, I love the John Stewart show's take on the Obama biographical film -- complete with clips from the Lion King -- and the tagline "HE COMPLETES US."

[blacknblue]

From Merriam - Webster online Dictionary:

feminist
One entry found.

feminism

Main Entry: fem·i·nism Listen to the pronunciation of feminism
Pronunciation: \ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1895

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes 2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests
— fem·i·nist Listen to the pronunciation of feminist \-nist\ noun or adjective
— fem·i·nis·tic Listen to the pronunciation of feministic \ˌfe-mə-ˈnis-tik\ adjective

I don't see the word abortion in there anywhere. Political, economic and social equality might or might not include some specific cases. believing in equal representation under the law, and believing in equal pay for equal work, does not necessarily require that my wife or my mother necessarily negate their personal conviction that life begins at conception. Does it?

I just don't see how the most passionate fundamentalists -- the ones who think women shouldn't talk in church and that the man is the woman's connection to God and that women's bodies must submit dutifully to procreation no matter what their own personal preference might be -- are really going to go for a woman who has chosen a career like this. But according to the talkings point hawkers on TV today, they're all revved up.

I have heard rumors of the existence of such people as you describe, but I have never actually met any. They may exist, but you cannot prove it by me. Not even in the most remote regions of WV.

The idea of a fundamentalist church where women are not allowed to talk stuns me into immobility... Women RULE fundamentalist Christian churches. Seriously. It ain't the men who operate them. Look closely. A man may be the preacher, but it is the women who actually operate them. Most of the men who sit there sweating in the pews would far rather be out fishing, or back home watching football.

[Alelou]

I think I'll leave this one alone. I shouldn't have brought it up in the first place in this setting.

[JadziaKathryn]

I have not seen verifiable evidence that anyone significant in either major party actually cares if I or my family drops dead.

Isn't this the truth!

I have to say my first reaction was "a woman? Oh, that' blatant." And then I thought, what does it say that I immediately jumped to the worse conclusion?

Then I remembered. It's politics. The worst conclusion is natural.

[blacknblue]

I think I'll leave this one alone. I shouldn't have brought it up in the first place in this setting.

I apologize for any offense. None was intended. I, myself, am not a feminist. I am a rampantly unapologetic chauvanist and dang proud of it. I was just trying to score some brownie points here at home by sticking up for Mom and Wifey. It never hurts to butter up She Who Must Be Obeyed.

[Asso]

KTR, your bummer sticker is hilarious. Escriba, that John Adams HBO series is AMAZING. There is like one draggy episode when he is in Paris. KEEP GOING! I sure learned alot. It reminded me of Roots, it was that impressive.

As for my political leanings, I'm a Democrat who is a little to the right of the Democrats on on economic issues FREE TRADE! Hooray for capitalism! I am a social liberal. People should be free from harrasment even if their lifestyle is not mainstream. Evern if they are not religious. But I want the government to provide education and healthcare to all. I want a safety net in place. I don't want the government supporting art or regulating the media. I do want it supporting basic science. I want government to be competent if there is a huge disaster like Katrina. I want a strong military . . . I guess. (I say guiltily, since I was brought up kind of pacifist.) I want the U.S. to participate in international humanitarian efforts, and work constructively with other nationa to solve/deal with international problems/conflicts.

JT, if one fine day there will be a government like you desire, tell me it - wherever it is - and I will join the nation where this government exists.

[Elessar]

The info is out there. In fact, it is all over the place. Check it out. I found it interesting indeed.

BTW, Spiro Agnew had only held a county level office before becoming VP. many candidates, like Geraldine Ferraro, or Jimmy Carter, have only held state office. She is about two, maybe three years younger than Obama I believe. With approximately the same amount of foreign policy experience.

Apparently this lady has made quite a splash in Alaska politics during her time in office, and has collected quite a few well established scalps on both sides of the aisle doing it. Mean little woman it seems.

Reads like they share child rearing duties. Two career family. Dunno. Odds are lifestyles in Alaska are a bit different than they are in NY or DC.

The conservative base that McCain needs to hold is not likely to object to a woman like Sarah Palin. A lifetime membership in the NRA? A union member and the wife of a Union Member? A firm Pro-lifer? The daughter of a teacher and a secretary, both of whom were union members?

I guess Obama can kiss us "bitter" bible clinging gun owners goodbye. According to the news reports I have been hearing the two groups that Obama has been having the most trouble nailing down are white working class males, and women who supported Hillary and are ticked off about her losing out. So McCain's pick could potentially draw in both of those groups.

The two "out of the box" choices she's been compared to are Spiro Agnew - who resigned days before Nixon in what was arguably the most ineffectual and scandal-ridden administration in our history - and Dan Quayle who was arguably the most ineffectual use of human brain matter in our history. Sadly, however, they were both elected . Kind of depresses you about the perceptive ability of the American electorate .

I also don't think it's completely accurate to say she has about the same level of foreign policy experience as Obama, though, because of the fundamental difference of the State and National level political worlds. I made the argument to my mom that while both of their experience levels are "less than" McCain's, or some other measure, that similar descriptor doesn't make them equal. The only issue at all that she's had any experience on that supercedes the State level by even a modicum, is energy policy. What actually shocks me is that she's from Alaska - the land of untarnished natural beauty - and she is even more obsessed with drilling in ANWR than McCain.

But... I mean... no offense but nobody should take her foreign policy opinions seriously anyway, because she has the equivalent experience of a city mayor with a journalism degree. I'm sure she's an intelligent lady, and has raised a nice family, but the pool of people who fit that description is a hell of a lot larger than the pool of people I would be comfortable with one heartbeat away from the Oval Office. I say city mayor for two reasons. One, the population of Alaska is 683,000. Would you vote to elect the mayor of Baltimore, Charlotte, Memphis, or Ft. Worth? Because those cities have about that population, and I can almost guarantee Ft. Worth has a bigger budget, more crime, more schools, policemen, firemen, and city services to coordinate and deal with than the entire state of Alaska.

The other reason I say mayor is because the majority of her experience is as mayor of Wasilla, Alaska... population 9,000, just 3 years ago. It's basically the last job she had before being elected governor. She ran and lost for Lt. Gov in 2002.

If women are duped into voting for this ticket by a 2-year governor soccer mom image whose most extensive executive experience is mayoring a town with more caribou than people, they deserve to lose their civil rights to a rampantly anti-women's rights administration that will follow. I completely agree with Alelou, and I think any feminists who vote for this woman will be making such a stupid decision that they deserve what they get: a female Veep, possible future Pres. contender who does absolutely nothing meaningful for women's rights. I mean come on, think of it another way... What does it communicate if she IS elected as VP and becomes a GOP contender is 2012 or 2016... That the best way to get elected the first female VP in American history is to be a beauty queen with no substance, picked up as a gimmick for horny first-time voting men and disaffected women? Talk about the opposite of the feminist message.

This can roll one of two ways: It will either help McCain nail down his own disaffected conservative base (even though I don't see why it should, he's the pres, not her), or it will actually poach disaffected Clinton voters away in a pretty small number, or it will do both.

I have to admit that I see little downside to this. While I think she's massively unqualified to be vice president and astronomically unqualified to be VP under a 72 yr old cancer survivor (let's face it, he has a higher chance of biting the dust in the next 4 yrs than a 47 year old), I don't think the experience attack is going to do much damage. They're not going to hurt her by SAYING she has little foreign policy experience, they're only going to hurt her by showing it. She has to say something really stupid that really shows her ignorance on foreign policy matters, and/or Biden has to absolutely destroy her in the October 2 VP debate for this argument to be more than marginally helpful in minimizing how much support she brings McCain.

Basically, if they want to quell this thing, Democratic surrogates have to start going on the attack about her credentials and her experience, and her accusation that during the Democratic Primaries, Hillary was "being a whiner." Hillary needs to put this woman in her sights to show female Democratic voters that "One woman is not as good as the next." which I REALLY think is a slogan they should adopt. It's catchy, it's incendiary, and I think it could work to portray McCain as a chauvenist and an opportunist.

But, I agree with BnB's original assessment, it was a very tactically intelligent choice and it defused a lot of the DNC's excitement. However, I think, and I hope, that it will continue to resonate with people as a really obvious attempt to poach PUMA voters.

The one scandal she has in her past is a non-starter because of the fact that the guy she tried to have fired actually turns out to be quite a douchebag, so women voters may not care that she abused her power, they could even cheer for it.

(For anyone who didn't hear yet, as Governor she allegedly abused her office by ordering a state official to fire her sister's ex-husband, a State Trooper, because of their nasty divorce and also for allegedly illegally accessing information about him for her sister's custody case. But the Trooper apparently abused the wife and supposedly tasered their 13 yr old son, but what I read says he asked him to, he wanted to know what it was like).

Oh, one thing they may be able to attack her on, is ironically what the McCain camp may think is her strongest issue - energy. *I think* (again, my little world could be misleading me) that people are generally pretty pumped about the idea of needing to get off oil. I know there are folks that don't agree, and I admit I don't know why, but it would seem to me that if they (Obama Camp) can portray her as a backwards thinker and even better, out of touch and in the oil pocket, on energy policy, because her husband works for BP and she wants to drill more, that could work. It needs to be a major point of contention though, they need to be releasing ads about it like, tomorrow.

BnB, I would also agree with you about how it was originally *hoped and intended* that the American democracy would be run by more normal people, not career politicians, but let's be honest, they WERE career politicians, so they had to be hoping that with a bit pie-in-the-sky optimism. Plus, forgetting that fact, even if they were completely serious about that intent, the day-to-day job of being president today is a hundred times more sophisticated and complex today than it was then, and a lot of assumptions they operated under have already been abandoned on that basis. It's the same reason we don't have true renassaince(sp?) men anymore.

AN: If I wrote "major" anywhere instead of "mayor" it's because I'm a lot moer used to typing "major" and my muscle memory is screwing me over tonight .

[justTripn]

Pittsburgh has had some Unusual mayors because our elected mayors keep dying (even the young ones--we have had terrible luck in that area. Have 2 or 3 died of extremely rare diseases?) When a mayor dies, whoever is president of city council become mayor. The first time when Mayor Callaguiri died in 1989, we got Sophie Masloff, a 70 year old Jewish grandmother, who knew what she was doing. She had been on city council since age 18. But she was (and is) a character.

from Wikepedia:

Masloff, who was 70 years old when she took office, was characterized by her short stature and raspy, nasal voice, along with her ability to speak Pittsburghese (the local dialect). These attributes were quickly caricatured by political cartoonists. Her image as a "little Jewish grandmother" made her a well liked figure, even by those who disagreed with her administration. Masloff is best remembered for pop-culture malaprops. She once referred to Bruce Springsteen as "Bruce Bedspring". When the Grateful Dead came to Pittsburgh, she called them the "Dreadful Dead" and their fans "Deadenders".

I also remember a lepard-skin stretchy pants and shirt set she wore on TV.

Our current Mayor, Luke Ravenstahl took office at 26, the youngest mayor ever in Pittsburgh, because the elected mayor, Bob O'Connor died. In this second case, I'm not so happy about the replacement mayor.

I am myself a "heartbeat from the presidency" of our astronomy club. It is a large club with 500 plus members with assets that include two obseratories and a large "endowment." We used to joke about my being a "heartbeat away from the presidency" until last year, a 52-year old former president I had served under dropped dead while jogging! (He was not the president at the time he died. He had been one year before!)

So, I hope they take these V.P picks seriously.

[Elessar]

I am myself a "heartbeat from the presidency" of our astronomy club. It is a large club with 500 plus members with assets that include two obseratories and a large "endowment." We used to joke about my being a "heartbeat away from the presidency" until last year, a 52-year old former president I had served under dropped dead while jogging! (He was not the president at the time he died. He had been one year before!)

Ah, ah, ah *shakes finger* , you've BEEN your astronomy club pres before though!

[justTripn]

No this will be my third? year as V.P.

[blacknblue]

First, I disagree that Dan Quale was unintelligent. I do agree that the mainstream media of the time, under the instructions of the owners of the major media companies, went to great lengths to make him appear that way. Even to the extent of deliberately misquoting him, taking his words out of context, and flat out fabricating statements that he never made. But that is water under the bridge.

Regarding that wildlife refuge in Alaska, I watched an interview with Palin recently (it is available on youtube for anyone that wants to watch it) wherein it was revealed that 1) the area in question has a footprint that issmaller than LAX airport and 2) is approximately 700 miles from the nearest tree.

The state of Alaska is also in the process of suing the federal government for placing the Alaskan polar bear on the endangered species list (last year I think). According to the State of Alaska Fish and Game people, the population of polar bears in Alaska has been INCREASING steadily for the past thirty years. You don't hear that on the mainstream media, do you? So Palin filed a lawsuit tohave them removed because she argues that it is a thinly veiled attempt to restrict access to domestic energy resources and maintain energy prices at their current artificially inflated levels. Stand by for results.

Granted that Obama has served in the Senate rather than at state level. however according to his voting recrod he ALMOST NEVER SHOWED UP FOR WORK. The man was a member of an important committee, granted. But he routinely missed meetings, missed crucial votes, never introduced bills, and never once bothered to visit Afghanistan or Iraq until he started campaigning. THIS is foreign policy experience? Please...

As far as losing out on feminist rights, I dispute the ongoing obsession with abortion. According to my wife and my mother, the two women whose opinion on the subject define my own opinions, abortion is far from the only relevant aspect of feminism. It is perfectly possible, according to them, to support economic and political equality without necessarily compromising one's religious convictions. I refuse to dispute my womenfolk. Especially my wife. I have been married 26 years. I may be a chauvinist, but I am not a suicidal idiot.

Note also that no one person is ever going to be a complete expert in foreign policy. US foreign policy is not based on the president's opinion. The president takes action after consulting with the joint chiefs of staff, the leaders of congress, the heads of the CIA, the FBI, NATO, M5, EIEIO, PDQ, MSC, PHD, LMNOP, IOU, FU, U2, UPURS, and a bunch of others. Frankly I doubt sincerely if Palin could possibly do any worse on foreign policy than some of the people that we have had in there before now.

On the other side of the coin, the thought of having Biden in as president makes me queasy. How many times has that man run for president and gotten trampled into the mud? I lost count long ago. He has become a bad joke, like Ralph Nader. Urgh.

[Alelou]

First, I disagree that Dan Quale was unintelligent. I do agree that the mainstream media of the time, under the instructions of the owners of the major media companies, went to great lengths to make him appear that way. Even to the extent of deliberately misquoting him, taking his words out of context, and flat out fabricating statements that he never made.

Really? "Instructions" from the owners? What do they do, get together in tiny luxurious rooms and plot how to influence the news each month?

I will grant you that members of the mainstream media follow each other like herd animals into grooves of lazy thinking that can result in giving a perfectly reasonable candidate a terrible rap, and I agree that once Dan Quayle became an easy joke the other accomplishments of the guy were ignored. I agree that there's a lot of lazy, weak-minded reporting out there and you CAN blame the owners for this since they keep cutting editorial budgets and putting their money into entertainment and other more profitable areas to keep their shareholders happy. However, the only owner of a major American media company who attempts to directly influence his editorial minions to follow a politically-motivated script is Rupert Murdoch, and even he keeps a reasonable distance from the stuff he owns that still has any journalistic reputation left, like the Wall Street Journal.

But I find your dead certainty in this very old conspiracy theory quite helpful, since it gives me a context for all your other statements, all delivered with equal certitude.

[blacknblue]

But I find your dead certainty in this very old conspiracy theory quite helpful, since it gives me a context for all your other statements, all delivered with equal certitude.

*sigh*

I have often, and I will continue to, invite anyone and everyone to double check anything I write. Please do not take anything I say at face value. I generally try to cite my sources and whenever possible include direct links. When this is not possible, I try to at least state the source of my opinion. For example, I stated that my opinions on feminism are derived from the input I receive from the two most important women in my life, my mother and my wife.

My opinions on Dan Quayle and the way the media treated him are, as i said above, water under the bridge. I did not bother to cite specific references, because I did not consider the matter important enough. I will try to research and see if I can find any direct references now since you have brought my honor into question.

I will make one concession. It is possible that I may have overstated the case slightly by implying that the media company owners instructed the news agencies to trash Quayle's reputation. That may have been an exaggeration. I will continue to maintain that they encouraged the presentation of a negative opinion of Quayle due to their (the media mogul's) own bias. Not being privy to the inner workings of the company, I obviously do not have precise information as to the form which this encouragement may have taken.

However, I have often checked and double checked things that I have previously posted as facts and found errors on my own initiative. When I do this I go back and correct them, and I make sure to post the corrections openly AS CORRECTIONS and openly note them as such. If you doubt this, i invite you to check with anyone else on this board. Lying or misrepresentation is not something that I would deliberately undertake. Certainly not over something as relatively unimportant as a forum debate.