What are you...

[blacknblue]

I don't count human labor as a part of economics. To me, control over other humans is a social matter, not an economic one.

But this does tie in with my attitude about gun control of course. My subculture clings bitterly to our guns because we have NEEDED them more than once. We had to fight for the land when we first invaded and settled here. Then we had to fight to keep it against other invaders. Then we had to fight to keep it during the revolution. then we had to fight to keep what little we had during the civil war. Then we had to fight to free ourselves from new invaders during the period of invasion by industrializing overlords. And we still have to use them sometimes to protect ourselves from corrupt officials. As witness the county sherrif a few years back whose van was found the day before election day at the foot of a cliff with forty bullet holes in it. Stuff happens.

[Distracted]

Wow. Where I come from we just mostly need 'em for the alligators...and to fill the freezer. (Sometimes both. Fried alligator tail....yummy.)

[Elessar]

YEWWWWWWWIE!

[dialee]

Blacknblue:

I don't count human labor as a part of economics. To me, control over other humans is a social matter, not an economic one.

How then would you account the benefit that is derived from human labor? Especially the economic and financial benefits of the 1980s and 1990s in this country as the intersection between human labor, technology, and capital?

[Alelou]

To try to talk about 'social control of workers' without thinking it's part of an economic system just boggles my mind. I mean, why do you think the dismal science was invented in the first place? To find a way of analyzing exactly these kinds of issues! Capitalism without any controls of any kind was EXACTLY what existed in those mines.

That's not to say a communist system couldn't replicate the same horrible conditions -- just instead of rich capitalists owning the mines, it would be government under the control of a few party elite who are profiting.

I'm not a huge fan of unions either, if only because the ones we have personal experience of in this family are so corrupt and ineffective they merely drain worker's income while cozying up to the powers that be in a way that keeps a few well-connected union people from ever having to do any real work. But without unions, there are whole generations of people in the United States that never could have had the middle class existence they gained. Who knows if it will matter, going forward. But I know I still hope and expect real leadership from a government that can impose meaningful and not just dumbass or pockmarked-by-loopholes regulation. (Haven't seen it in many years, though, and I'll lump Clinton in with that.)

I was reading a really interesting article today about "swill milk" -- a doctored concoction of milk and other substances that was sold in NYC in the last century -- over a period of decades -- sickening and killing thousands of children -- until the government finally cracked down by imposing (gasp) regulations. China's experiencing those same growing pangs of capitalism right now, only they're doing it late in the game and with the world's eyes on them as they do it.

[blacknblue]

Blacknblue:

I don't count human labor as a part of economics. To me, control over other humans is a social matter, not an economic one.

How then would you account the benefit that is derived from human labor? Especially the economic and financial benefits of the 1980s and 1990s in this country as the intersection between human labor, technology, and capital?

I am not trying to suggest that my personal definitions be applied to any scientific analysis. This is just my internal categorization. I define human labor as intangible. That is, it is not perfectly quantifiable in the same way that products and services can be quantified. A pound of steel equals a pound of steel wherever it is and whoever makes it. You can do a point by point comparison of the tensile and compressive strength, rust resistance, etc. of various types of steel for example, and get precisely reproducible results. Therefore, you can apply these numbers in an effort to turn economics into a real science.

Human labor is infinitely variable. No two people will do the same job the same way. Not even on an assembly line. In fact, the same person won't do the same job the same way two different days in a row. Health, fatigue, motivation, emotions all play a part. Too many variables to calculate, and all of them are inconsistent and completely unpredictable.

The inborn desire to attain and maintain dominance over other people is instinctive. No matter how primitive the society, every human group has a top dog leadership. Either a chief, or a gruop of leaders/elders whatever. There is always someone who is on top. The drive to dominate is inborn. It is not always based on economic status either. Sometimes the most influential members of a society, like the priesthood in pre-industrial Europe, are not necessarily the richest. Admittedly, some of the European priests were richer than any of the nobility, but not all of them. And I doubt that the average village priest was rolling in gold.

Even today, the president and members of congress hold real power, but they are not even close to being the richest members of our society. Oprah or Bill Gates could buy any of them. And probably have.

So basically, I include human labor as being under the umbrella of human interaction, which I consider to be a social matter.

[Alelou]

It may vary a great deal by individual and minute or hour or day, but it can certainly be lumped together and measured as productivity. In a company like the one where I freelance, where the output is all "creative," it's measured on a daily basis in their "capacity report," and you'd better believe they notice very quickly if someone is not producing in a way that keeps their bottom line healthy ... and not just quality but also quantity. Just as they also quickly notice if they need to hire more people in order to keep the clients happy. They've got it down to a near-science.

Unfortunately it's a near-science in which they factor in the assumption that people will work nights and weekends and pass up vacations as needed. That seems to increasingly be the case with white-collar jobs in this country.

[blacknblue]

It may vary a great deal by individual and minute or hour or day, but it can certainly be lumped together and measured as productivity. In a company like the one where I freelance, where the output is all "creative," it's measured on a daily basis in their "capacity report," and you'd better believe they notice very quickly if someone is not producing in a way that keeps their bottom line healthy ... and not just quality but also quantity. Just as they also quickly notice if they need to hire more people in order to keep the clients happy. They've got it down to a near-science.

Unfortunately it's a near-science in which they factor in the assumption that people will work nights and weekends and pass up vacations as needed. That seems to increasingly be the case with white-collar jobs in this country.

That kinda illustrates my point. The rules are too variable. You can stretch and change them at will. You cannot change the rules for measuring direct output/productivity for bushels of corn per acre, or pounds of steel per minute.

[Elessar]

my cat's breath smells like cat food.

[blacknblue]

:dunno:

my cat's breath smells like cat food.

I wouldn't worry about it. As long as your breath doesn't smell like cat food, you should be ok.

[Navigator]

:dunno:

my cat's breath smells like cat food.

I wouldn't worry about it. As long as your breath doesn't smell like cat food, you should be ok.

Wait until he eats the MREs.

[Linda]

I wonder if the urge to dominate other humans is gender related? Heck, my urge to dominate must have been repressed or maybe the gene which it is on is defective in me. My urge to cooperate, share, give fair exchange of ideas, labor, whatever, seems to be functioning okay. I am not much of a leader and do so reluctantly. When someone tries to dominate me, I just end the relationship. I do work for a living and cooperate with leadership above me, but with checks and balances like a labor union. And I go along with a chain of command in the semi-military organization of the Coast Guard Auxiliary, where you deal with emergencies which need immediate coordinated action. But there is always a debrief after the mission, where everyone has a say. It is hard for me to accept the concept that the urge to dominate is a basic part of my makeup as a human.

[panyasan]

I must confess that my view of capitalism has negatively been changed, since the top men of the company where I work sold the company for a lot of money to a foreign company promising a profit rate that is totally unrealistic. So now the stock holders want their money and the only way to keep them happy is to cut back on costs. So now they made up this great plan to fire al lot of people. It's all about greed.

[panyasan]

I must confess that my view of capitalism has negatively been changed, since the head of the company where I work sold the company for a lot of money to a foreign company promising a profit rate that is totally unrealistic. So now the stock holders want their money and the only way to keep them happy is to cut back on costs. So now they made up this great plan to fire al lot of people. It's all about greed.

[panyasan]

I must confess that my view of capitalism has negatively been changed, since the head of the company where I work sold the company for a lot of money to a foreign company promising a profit rate that is totally unrealistic. So now the stock holders want their money and the only way to keep them happy is to cut back on costs. So now they made up this great plan to fire al lot of people. It's all about greed.

WOW I am quoting my self...