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Kirk to Amanda: I take it that Spock disagreed with his father on a choice of career.
Amanda: My husband has nothing against Starfleet. But Vulcans believe that peace should not depend on force.
Kirk: Starfleet force is used only as a last resort. We're an instrument of civilization. And it's a better opportunity for a scientist to study the universe than at the Vulcan Science Academy.
Amanda: Perhaps. But Sarek wanted Spock to follow his teachings, as Sarek followed the teachings of his own father.
Kirk: They're both stubborn.
Amanda (with a smile): A human trait, Captain?

Thanks for posting this bit of dialog, HR. I think It could and should be interpreted in light of where the planet Vulcan stood politically at that point in time, as well as determining how much influence Captain Archer had on T'Pau and then how much influence T'Pau had on Sarek in turn.

Anyway, I really appreciate this conversation, It's making me think about all the possible political and cultural pressures that could have effected their marriage.

HopefulRomantic wrote:

Amanda: My husband has nothing against Starfleet.

That's sort of like saying "no offense, but..." The second part of that statement pretty much points out what his problem was, which is that he say Starfleet as too militaristic, hence the statement about the use of force to keep the peace.

Hmmm...Vulcan must have changed quite a bit. ENT Vulcans don't seem averse to the use of force.

evcake wrote:Hmmm...Vulcan must have changed quite a bit. ENT Vulcans don't seem averse to the use of force.

Exactly!

evcake wrote:Hmmm...Vulcan must have changed quite a bit. ENT Vulcans don't seem averse to the use of force.

Which is why Manny Coto had to try to fix it with the Kir'Shara arc. I say "try" because it came off as "Super!Archer brings enlightenment to the noble savages" too much for it to be effective, IMO.

CX wrote:

evcake wrote:Hmmm...Vulcan must have changed quite a bit. ENT Vulcans don't seem averse to the use of force.

Which is why Manny Coto had to try to fix it with the Kir'Shara arc. I say "try" because it came off as "Super!Archer brings enlightenment to the noble savages" too much for it to be effective, IMO.

Again... exactly!

I think that Gene Roddenberry was a bit leery of presenting Vulcans in any kind of violent light. Those of us who are ancient and decrepit enough to remember the sixties (when TOS first emerged) will remember that the "counter culture" movement almost idolized eastern mysticism as an alternative to what they called the barren materialism of western civilization. Vulcans were being presented in TOS as a kind of alien version of the eastern gurus that were so fashionable among the celebrities and rock stars of the sixties. Peaceful, enlightened beings from an older culture. Beings who had "found a better way" and could enlighten we primitive Humans in our struggle to improve ourselves... yadda yadda yadda.

Thus, Vulcans were presented as pacifists. Unfortunately, the plot often required Spock to act violently. It wouldn't do for the first officer of Enterprise to be a wimp, so he always kicked ass. It was a quandry. Was he a tough mutha because he was half Human? Did that mean that VUlcans, although admirably enlightened were in fact espousing a way of life that would ultimately lead to weakening us?

That would have gotten Roddenberry lynched in the sixties. At least on the west coast it would have. So he presented Spock as being the scion of a people who used to be warriors but learn to master their primitive passions. Bingo! But then he had to admit that they still had those old passions. Otherwise they would no longer have a need to study and maintain the disciplines.

He painted himself into a corner. So they just avoided the question altogether by never allowing it to come up.

Can anyone tell I'm not a big fan of Gene Roddenberry?

Neither am I.

Me too. As much as I can admire Roddenberry for thinking up Star Trek in the first place, he did have some quirky ideas. And he got worse as he got older and began TNG, which in many respects changed the outlook from TOS (like the "evolved humanity", no intra-personal conflicts etc.). Besides, TOS would never have made it if it hadn't been for that other Gene - Gene L. Coon.

Gene L. Coon who?

gene coon came in as a producer about mid way through the first season.
a lot of elements of trek such of the federation and klingons were created by him.

blacknblue wrote:He painted himself into a corner.

the story of Trek

JadziaKathryn wrote:Gene L. Coon who?

Gene Coon at Memory Alpha