TSara & eKayak: Knocked Up!!! :^D

[Escriba]

With no competition, prices go up and service goes down, because there is nothing to drive a monopoly to do any better than the bare minimum that the law requires. People who are yelling about universal heath care apparently don't understand this fundamental thing, despite what was seen in places like Soviet Russia. But really the fact of the matter is that the cause of all the problems in our medical system is that there isn't enough competition between hospitals. Instead, what we have are a bunch of conglomerates that take over an area and monopolize. If anything, the government should give grants to help out small hospitals so they can stand half a chance against these hige corporate medical companies.

I don't know, our health care is quite good, so I can't really have an objetive opinion (but I think comparing universal health care with Soviet Russia is a bit unfair.) For example, today. I have this stupid costochondritis or Tietze's syndrome (the stress... grrr...) and I went to the Outpatient Clinic to ask for an appointment. They could give me it for today, but I'm busy today, so they gave me one for tomorrow (and I could choose the hour this time ) My town has between 5000 and 6000 inhabitants and has one Outpatient Clinic, where you have to go before going to the Hospital. If what you have requires more treatment, they send you to the hospital (or if you have a very serious injury, you can go directly to one.) There are two public hospital in an area of 20 km (one better that the other, that's true.) Of course, other thing is the Gynecologist: for an appoitment (if there is no emergency and you're not pregnant) you have to wait about 6 months (*sigh* how hard is to be a woman...)

But otherwise, I feel privileged.

And about the lawyers... yes, those "ambulance chasers" look creepy.

[CX]

You wouldn't have to wait that long in the US. That's the main disadvantage with so-called "free" health care that other, smaller countries have - the waiting lists. And as far as that goes, and the quality of care, I think it's very fair to compare it to the Soviet Union, after all, this type of health care is based entirely on a socialist ideal, and people like Micheal Moore try to use Cuba as a supposedly good example. The other thing about "free" health care is that its entirely dependant on the amount of funding it receives from the government. Again, look at the constantly underfunded military health care system. But really, dont take my word for it, look at what a Canadian doctor has to say: The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care.

[blacknblue]

To be strictly fair, she would not have to wait that long for a gynecologist in the US. This is true. But on the other hoof, a town in the US with only 6,000 people in it would not be likely to have a hospital of any kind within less than 25-30 miles not kilometers (1 mile = 1.69 kilometer), much less 2. Most likely the only health care they have available would be nurses at the local health department. If you are lucky.

Or that has been my experience and observation, here in middle America. Is it different in the northern tier?

[Alelou]

I don't think anybody would argue that if you've got plenty of money or good health insurance in the US that you have good access to largely good health care, although I've sure had to wait more than a day for an appointment. The question is whether you care about the millions of people in the US who DON'T have access, or the effect that this has on the cost of the whole system or even your OWN health if we ever face a serious epidemic. (Have you ever heard of enlightened self-interest?) And you might also think about what those costs do to the competitiveness of American business. And you might also think about whether you like to think of the US as a civilized, wealthy, enlightened democracy that can solve its problems for the benefit of all its citizens or some kind of primitive third world nation that's content to tolerate higher mortality rates and tremendous inequality just as long as the people at the top can make their millions.

<Deep breath.> I shut up now.

[CX]

No, the question for me is more along the lines of why should everyone be forced to have the same crappy health care that has been shown in several countries to be just that, crappy health care. So much so, that a lot of countries that have nationalized health care are starting to see a resurgence in private practices again, because people are getting pissed off at having such long waiting periods, having their appointments repeatedly cancelled, and other such crap. I implore you to read through that article I posted.

[Alelou]

But what is the point? Nobody in the U.S. is talking about instituting nationalized health care. It's like a bait-and-switch scare tactic to focus criticism on a socialist health model. It ain't even on the table. The only discussion right now is on the government's role in reducing costs and assuring universal access to insurance.

[CX]

A lot of people are talking about that just in this thread. As far as candidates go, Clinton is an advocate of a universal health care system. She's not going to win, but she's still an advocate for it, even if she has no idea how it would be paid for.

[Escriba]

This is going to sound weird, but you look exactly like my family

You should watch our Christmas' meal

[enterprikayak]

Now I have a question for ek: is Aureilia looking forward to being a big sister?

When people ask Aureilia "Are you going to be a BIG SISTER?", she corrects them: "I am a big sister!"

She's stoked. She has a made up a name "Blan-sa" which she suggests at every babyname brainstorming session. It's cute, but I don't think we'll go with Blan-sa in the end, somehow.

And yes, there's plenty wrong with healthcare in EVERY country, that's for sure. However, I do wonder how much MORE the states' government ends up paying for critical care for people when they run dying to the emerg room than they would pay if they simply practiced a little prevention and allowed T'Poptarts to go see a doctor when she is sick. It's a really tough issue. There are definitely a lot of "private clinics" popping up in town these days so that people who have the $ can pay for faster service.....but it is a mental situation no matter how you cut it.

Surprised to read about the crappy health care for the armed forces! One thing that has always pissed me off here (esp when I worked for an orthodontist) is how regular citizens get X amount of health care, but if you're in the Services, you get access to FREE top notch doctors (with way less/no waiting), AND FREE dental and orthodontal and prosthodontal work (no one in canada gets help from the gov't for their teeth, and yet the Forces peeps get free JAW surgery and stuff for their BRACES which NO ONE else EVER EVER GETS! (Not even private ins. co's pay for jaw surgery). Why does the Canadian gov't spend SO MUCH MORE on our tiny bunch of armed forces people and SO MUCH LESS on all the other people with other (just as important) types of employment. Pisses me off. I worked at the Forces hospital for part of my dental practicum and it is just freaking STATE of the ART everything, with waste and excess just pouring everywhere, and meanwhile some kid or adult with totally f-ed up teeth who ISN'T in the precious army gets no help at all with their bills.

When my cousin's baby died one day after being born nobody thought about suing the hospital (which would mean the Public Service because the hospital wasn't private) or the doctor. We assumed everything was done right. I don't know why some people is so eager to sue, really.

Totally agree. (As long as everything was done right), the LAST thing I'd want to do after suffering a traumatic loss would be to sit in court proceedings trying to wring some cash out of the deal.

Litigious people suck. And yeah, malpractice insurance is insane.... all because of the greedy jerks who love to litigate. I even had to have it, as a freaking DENTAL ASSISTANT! People are just suing the whole office staff these days when they decide something wasn't done the way they think it should have been. Morons.

[vero3110]

But what is the point? Nobody in the U.S. is talking about instituting nationalized health care. It's like a bait-and-switch scare tactic to focus criticism on a socialist health model. It ain't even on the table. The only discussion right now is on the government's role in reducing costs and assuring universal access to insurance.

Just my two cents from a third world country perspective (I like to believe that we are not primitive any more).

Around here we have a mixed health care system. What I mean for mixed is:
- Private health insurance that basically allow it's costumers access good to excellent health care services.
- Public health insurance that allows it's users access to public hospital and clinics that are good to medium in quality. If the public systems doesn't have beds or OR available when an urgency occurs the patient is treated in a private clinic/hospital with no further costs to the patient
- Free health for the people that can't pay at all.

Every working person around here pays monthly about 7% if his/hers income with a maximum of USD 190 for health care, this is apart of taxes and your retirement fund. Depending on your choice the 7% goes to the public or private sector.

The difficulty here is the funding of the public health care system:
- This year we'll get to a USD 10.000 yearly per inhabitant income, and we are about 16,5 million people
- 80% of the people that goes to the public health care system can't pay for the services
- 25% to 30% of the population pays for a private health care insurance
- The country is quite long (4.200 KM) and the population is scattered from north to south with about half of us concentrated in the middle

Lots of numbers as you can see. It is the world of the fittest, and by being fittest I mean have more money. Pretty basic and unevolved. Very unfair and sad IMHO.

The thing that strikes me harder is that some of the US population could be living similar circumstances as some of our people. And as Horton would say we are a particle compared to you, but a person is a person no matter his/hers size.

I lived in Madrid some time ago and my best friend lives in France. They are light years from us in health care and in understanding the Vulcan saying "The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few".

Which system is better? I guess it depends in how much every society is ready to share or not.

Vero

[Elessar]

No, the question for me is more along the lines of why should everyone be forced to have the same crappy health care that has been shown in several countries to be just that, crappy health care. So much so, that a lot of countries that have nationalized health care are starting to see a resurgence in private practices again, because people are getting pissed off at having such long waiting periods, having their appointments repeatedly cancelled, and other such crap. I implore you to read through that article I posted.

Your concerns about crappy nationalized health care are only an issue with Hillary's universal health care plan because hers requires individuals to buy it from the government, whereas Obama's does not. Obama's allows for the case where you have your own private health care and you want to keep it that way, it just provides a low-cost government alternative for people who can't afford it.

It's like, do you hate HUD housing? No, because it doesn't effect you right? The gov't doesn't force you to live in cheap, shitty government housing -- it offers cheap, shitty government housing for people who can't afford better. That comes outta your taxes too... If a person doesn't like national programs because they cost you money, that's fine, but in this particular case, you can't dislike it because it forces something on you, because it doesn't.

Btw, we're not talking about politics

But I don't think it's fair to look at foreign medical systems and make a summary conclusion that one would fail were we to try it. There are like 40 variables that make our country different from like... Bulgaria's. Maybe socialized medicine sucks in Bulgaria because everything sucks in Bulgaria , not because socialized medicine just plain sucks.

My opinion is that there is a way to raise the minimum level of medical wellness coverage for the average person without costing us the availability of advanced procedures. IMO, the accusation that it would is part of the big business, pro-HMO/healthcare/pharmaceutical giant propaganda being churned out by the lobbyists who work for them, and its just filtered down to the average person who then turns around and uses it. I don't think it's the case.



BTW, conGRATULATIONS to eK and TSara!

[JadziaKathryn]

When people ask Aureilia "Are you going to be a BIG SISTER?", she corrects them: "I am a big sister!"

Awww.

She's stoked. She has a made up a name "Blan-sa" which she suggests at every babyname brainstorming session. It's cute, but I don't think we'll go with Blan-sa in the end, somehow.

That could always be the middle name...

[Elessar]

When people ask Aureilia "Are you going to be a BIG SISTER?", she corrects them: "I am a big sister!"

Awww.

She's stoked. She has a made up a name "Blan-sa" which she suggests at every babyname brainstorming session. It's cute, but I don't think we'll go with Blan-sa in the end, somehow.

That could always be the middle name...

I really like these two A-names: Aeryn and Aeon... but you already have an unusual 'A'-name in the family

the origins of Aeryn and Aeon should be obvious to all here

I've also always liked Victoria and Annabelle. What can I say, I'm a sucker for old fashioned girls' names

I also like the names Colt and Deckard for men. They're really MANLY! Incidentally, there's an officer candidate upstate named "Colt Deckard" but I've never met him.

[CX]

But I don't think it's fair to look at foreign medical systems and make a summary conclusion that one would fail were we to try it. There are like 40 variables that make our country different from like... Bulgaria's. Maybe socialized medicine sucks in Bulgaria because everything sucks in Bulgaria , not because socialized medicine just plain sucks.

We're not talking about Bulgaria, we're talking about basically every country that has ever tried it. We're also talking about other examples, like Canada, which is similiar to the US in a lot of ways, and an example within the US, which is the military health care system. We're also talking aout examples of what happens when there is no competition, even within the medical care system. We're also taling about similiarities to that when a corporate hospital gains a monopoly in an area, because it's something that's directly observable.

[blacknblue]

I would not trust the US government to clean out a chicken coop properly unless they were carefully supervised by an independent review panel. If we do go with socialized medicine, we dern well better install some seriously intense oversight.

Which we won't, of course.