The Whine thread.

[honeybee]

As a product of private college and university and someone who teaches at a public one - I think a lot about what I got versus what I'm able to give my students.

I did enjoy my experience a a private liberal arts school, and I was lucky that I graduated without debt from it - and certainly understand some of the benefits I got that my students don't get - primarily in terms of class size, course offerings and quality of on campus spaces.

I get frustrated at not being able to give some of my students the individual attention that I got. At my alma mater, there were no classes that had more than 15 students above the junior level and TAs were forbidden. Even introductory classes were taught by full professors (I took intro to econ with a Nobel Prize winner). In terms of space, the school had the money to invest in buildings that were built to endure - where the school I teach at builds cheap tear downs. Even the newer dorms are infested with mice because corners were cut. When I was an undergraduate, the new on campus building was designed by Rafael Maneo - a Pritzker Prize winner who went on to design the Kimmel Center in Philadelphia. My school has to tear down, rebuild buildings about every 15 years or so - which in the long term wastes money. Plus, I do believe that studying in a gorgeous building designed by Georges Pompidu does serve to make students feel special and is conducive to studying - it may be a luxury but it's a nice one that isn't a small thing. I say that as someone who has to get my students excited about learning in a falling down 1970s concrete monstrosity with a leaking roof, ants and mice. Thankfully, the mice and ants generally only show up in the professors offices - not the classrooms.

When I did my senior thesis on William Blake - my school owned the original etchings of Songs of Innocence. So, I was able to access those and use them as an undergraduate. Bigger schools that have exceptional collections, often don't let undergraduates near their special collections.

Also, I did my graduate work at a private school that has the finest undergraduate archeology department in the world. If an undergraduate has a sincere interest in archeology - you're not going to find hieroglyphics, Sanskrit or Cuneiform at most state schools. Because it was private, it could offer something "impractical" like archeology. It's pretty tough to get into a PHD program in archeology if you haven't studied dead languages - so if a student is really focused on an academic career in something specific like archeology - it's worth looking into a private school.

And it is my understanding that if a student has very high level science abilities, MIT, Cal Tech Johns Hopkins can offer undergraduates lab work and involvement in research that is reserved for graduate students at most state schools. So, a young person with exceptional aptitude in the sciences would certainly benefit if they could get into the top tier science schools.

On the other hand, my third tier state school has the best program in Pennsylvania German Studies in the world - so if you are interested in the Amish and Mennonites - it's the place to go. It sounds obscure, but I've had a few exceptionally bright students in my journalism classes that are PA German studies majors - and they want to write about the Amish eventually so they take my classes. And I've certainly noticed that the culture at my school is not nearly as cut throat and competitive as it was at my school. Students seem genuinely supportive of one another, something that was very lacking at my fancy undergraduate school.

But the trick with private schools is - exceptional (and I mean really exceptional not just above average) ability, focused interests and/or ability to pay for this either by private funds or scholarships. My school gave out a lot of scholarships and even offered something called the student aid society, which offered help with books and miscellaneous expenses that financial aid doesn't cover. This even included money for business clothes during job seeking season. I suggested this at my school and was nearly laughed out of the room.

In other words, private schools offer stuff that state schools can't - and sometimes vice versa. Don't get me wrong, I don't think you should go into massive debt for a name brand school - believe me - that's silly, especially, if you have no idea what you want to do with your life. But private schools do offer things state schools can't - things that are right for some students.

I work my rear end off to make sure that the classes I teach are just as good a quality as the ones I taught when I taught at an expensive private school - but we do have to fight to keep our class sizes low and deal with administrators who would just assume turn our school into a degree factory. They often take the attitude that our population is poor, rural and we're just helping them get a job. At my undergraduate school, the administration took the attitude that the students were exceptional and were being groomed for great things. Snobby? Heck yeah. But it translated into an administration that was willing to invest in student welfare in a way that the university where I teach can't afford - and probably some administrators at my school would view as a waste.

[Alelou]

Hudson Valley has a lot of stuff going for our students, though a lot of it is actually organized by the professors and student government -- things like a food bank, interview clothing drives, and a household goods giveaway to help students who are from away set up their apartments, since we don't have dorms and we do get a fair number of students from NYC and Long Island and such. I'm also impressed at what the college provides for free that I used to have to pay for, like computers, printing, etc. There's a ton of extra free tutoring available too.

I agree a private college can be exceptional and can be the right choice for a lot of students, especially those who might get lost in a crowd. But unless your parents or you have a lot of resources you've really got to hope financial aid is part of it. Some of the local smaller colleges, like Sienna and College of Saint Rose, do tend to come through with the financial aid. That makes a big difference.

And it's also true that if you know exactly what your passion is, you want to go to the best program for that. But as my guidance counselor friend pointed out, in the US only one quarter of students declare a major before going to college, and only half of those have the same major when they graduate.

[aadarshinah]

I dunno, honestly, what my problem was. I think my first college was just too big - my dorm has 5x as many people as were in my entire high school in it alone - and the comm college I went too just too low quality, or too below my level, or something, so that I ultimately became unhappy with it. A large part of it was, while I was still working, my teacher's gave me a hard time about having to work and my boss gave me a hard time about school, as I'd commitments to each and, occassionally, would have to leave ten or fifteen minutes early from class to go to work, or would be unable to work at a certain time because of class. I got pulled every which way, and then, by the time I was laid off, I was just too unhappy with my teachers to continue in that field and had already planned on switching majors... which I did, until it got to the point that I just couldn't take school anymore. Which is saying something, considering it takes a lot to piss me off most the time.

Oh well. C'est la vive, or something like that. It'll work out in time.

[honeybee]

Big schools aren't for everyone. Neither are small schools. It's just important to find the right fit - and, as I said earlier - a school that offers programs that interest you and a culture where you can find your place.

Being from Texas, I know lots of people who went to the University of Texas at Austin, which is a fine, well-endowed school with excellent programs. It's also enormous, impersonal and good luck meeting a professor until your junior year. The main dorm has its own zip code. Lots of people drown there. A friend of mine transferred to the small, private St. Edwards University in Austin - and did much better. Yet, my mentally ill brother loved UT - because he hates attention, hates talking in class and likes to do stuff on his own time. It took him six years to do his undergraduate work, but he got his degree.

A few years ago, a study came out in the Chronicle of Higher Education about parents expectations of a high end private education versus the reality. All too many parents think if their kid goes to Harvard or Amherst or Stanford, they'll end up rich - so they happily shell out money or let the kid go into hock assuming a financial payback. Nope. While it is true that a lot of the big investment firms hire out of the ivy league (a career that will make your kid popular with the masses, of course), most of the graduates go on to graduate work - and a large portion go on to fulfilling lower paying careers. They become academics. And teachers. And artists. And writers. Lawyers and doctors, too. In other words, your kid is far more likely to come out of an ivy league school a philosophy professor than a billionaire.

My friends from college include a woman who runs a yoga studio, an Episcopal priest, a lawyer and a high school English teacher. The one doctor I know works for the CDC and the lawyer does family law and works primarily on domestic violence cases. Neither of them are rolling in dough. The only one of us who is rich was born that way and married that way. We do all have graduate degrees, though.

[aadarshinah]

God, I seem to be a frequent visitor on this thread but... I have to get if off my chest.

So, after dinner, I'm sitting in my room writing when my mom comes in and is all, "I'm taking Sadie," (one of my cats), "to be put down." I find this suprising, because last I heard the cat was doing okay. Turns out, while I've been gone all week, she's gotten really bad. But this is okay. Understandable even. We've had her for at least 14 years, and she was yardly young when we got her. I get it. I agree with the assesment. It's just the out of nowhere that gets me.

The annoying part is the fact that Mom's been calling and texting us with updates, telling my brother to go dig a grave for the kitty since it's so hot and he's like, "yeah, give me five minutes to finish what I'm in the middle of and I'll do it," and, since she's at least 1hr from getting back, you'd think this would be enough. Instead, both mom and dad (whose 3 times zones away and has the annoying habit of calling to ask the title of a book on his shelves or for the definition of a word to begin with) have been calling, nagging my brother about doing it - which he did, right when he finished what he was in the middle of, precisely 5 min after the initial question - and, since my brother never answers the phone, I've been interupted every 3 seconds with new calls and required to nag my brother about it, which results in universal anger a me for a) nagging, b) not getting my brother on the phone and, c) not getting my brother to drop everything and dig a grave that will not be filled for at least another 55min.

The worst part is, I'm more upset about this than the fact the cat is being put to sleep. But I needed to rant. I love my family, but, God, can they drive me crazy...

[Distracted]

Sorry about your cat. And I have only sympathy for you regarding your mom. She sounds like a clone of my mother-in-law. All I can advise you is that things will get much better once you move out of state.

[Alelou]

On the plus side, in your future life you should be able to handle almost any kind of boss...

[Bether6074]

I can't even believe all that's involved in getting a kid ready to attend a community college. And we still don't have everything set...

[Aquarius]

Did my grocery shopping for the new place last night. I about died when I got the bill. Between buying all the little crap that you usually only have to get once in a great while like salt and spices, etc., and the fact that things are just higher out there...ouch. I have an electric cooler chest with a cigarette lighter plug. I may just keep it in the car and do my shopping after work when I'm out here in the 'burbs.

The most irritating part: this was at a Super Wal-Mart, which supposedly is the cheapest.

[Alelou]

Spices are horrifically expensive. I usually try to get mine at the food coop, where I can buy them by the pound in little plastic baggies and put them in jars (which of course you wouldn't have, having just moved). Either that or I grow them myself. You can nuke almost anything into a nice fresh spice in a microwave: parsley, oregano, basil, dill, catnip... You can also dry some of that stuff by hanging it up (but not parsley, which turns into a repulsive brown clump).

Some spices are also a lot cheaper at ethnic stores.

[honeybee]

There's always extra expenses when moving. When I was a kid, my mom had to move and while my dad's firm paid for the move itself, Mom always had to drop money on lots of stuff they didn't pay for.

Although, I do remember her bringing a box of spices on the plane once. You always need to hit Wal-Mart or Target for cleaning supplies - including mops, brooms and dustpans. There's all the stuff like butter, olive oil and spices - stuff you usually buy once in a blue moon but if you get one go it is pricey. Shelf paper. Curtains. New sheets and blankets if your bed size is changing. Bathmats. Dog treats (in my case). The list goes on - moving costs money.

I remember during the housing boom when everyone was "trading up" doing an article about asking yourself whether an addition to the house you were in was better than a move - and if you factored in all the moving expenses - it often was - even though additions can be very expensive.

[Alelou]

Well, it's even more expensive if you once shared all that stuff and now you're starting over on your own. Because otherwise you can just pack up all the spices and cleaning crap, too.

Of course, throwing out dusty, flavorless old spices can be a good thing, especially if you don't have Passover or something to make you do it on an annual basis.

I used to have a pattern of buying way more cleaning stuff than I ever used. It's as if just purchasing it would somehow get the cleaning done... bwa ha ha ha ... NOT.

[justTripn]

I just found out how petty I am, lol . . The friend I made from the hockey class just made it on to the Puffins, the women's club hockey team here in Pittsburgh. I'm trying to be happy for her, but ARRGGHH!!! I used to be better than her and she zipped right past me, lol . . . Of course she is in her 20s and an athlete in general. I can skate backwards faster!!!! Me, me, I want to be a Puffin! Oh dear . . . It's sad to find this out about yourself.

In happy news, I'm on a list of women hockey players for pick up games at ice rinks all around the city (thanks to this same woman, sharing her connections) and I've played 2 pickup games just this week. I'm having a blast.

[Alelou]

You're still freakin' amazing to me.

So do women check all the time the way the guys do?

[justTripn]

I only recently found out we aren't supposed to be checking at all. There is one women who has bumped me into the wall every time I've met up with her. I took it as a compliment, lol . . . (She didn't think I would fall down and cry). We are all wearing so much padding that it is almost impossible to get hurt, except of course muscle aches from expending all that energy.