What are you...

[Linda]

Hey, Evcake, pass Rigil a cookie. He is about to go off to war...I mean he's about to go off and read about it. He needs sustenance. His post got lost between the cookie ingredients, LOL.

I love anything about the ancient Greeks...the myths mostly and the architecture...then there was the Spartens at Thermopolie (spelling probably off). Did that sacrifice really safe Greek Civilization? Rigil, put on your historian hat and elucidate us some.

[Rigil Kent]

"Go tell the Spartans, stranger passing by, that here obedient to their laws we lie."

It's Thermopylae, and is on my list of places that I absolutely will go to before I die. For historical fiction, I recommend Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire. For a completely fictionalized look at the battle (but with some of the coolest damned fighting scenes ever), the movie 300 is out there. It's fascinating story, and I really think that my history major will ultimately be focused on that era...

7000 Greeks vs 200,000 Persians and the Greeks held the Hot Gates for 3 days. Something like 20,000 Persians were killed in the first two days. Hoo-fraking-rah.

[Elessar]

Hey, Evcake, pass Rigil a cookie. He is about to go off to war...I mean he's about to go off and read about it. He needs sustenance. His post got lost between the cookie ingredients, LOL.

I love anything about the ancient Greeks...the myths mostly and the architecture...then there was the Spartens at Thermopolie (spelling probably off). Did that sacrifice really safe Greek Civilization? Rigil, put on your historian hat and elucidate us some.

I think the last question is up for debate. There were a couple of much larger battles (as in, the Greeks had more forces and the Persians were decidedly owned) after Thermopylae that probably are the reason the invasion failed, but I think what one might argue is that Thermopylae weakened, both in actual number and less quantifiably in spirit, the Persian forces, contributing to their losses in those later battles, like the naval battle at Salamis and the one they show at the end of 300 which I forget the name of. I think that in general, historians view it as a significant weakening of the Persian army such that perhaps the later battles went better for the Greeks than they would have. However, I don't believe any accounts of the Persians of that era survive today, which might shed some light on it from THEIR perspective. Ya never know, the Persian version of the story might tell of little more than the Persians steamrolling over a "small, Greek patrol force" . I don't think there are any first-person surviving sources of information about the battle, at least not from Persia, and few from Greeks. The most commonly referred to are from Herodotus, but when I looked into them I found out that historicans can't even reach a consensus as to whether or not he was even in that vicinity (later on, he wasn't a contemporary of the battle in any case).

We should really be asking JK, come to think of it. She knows a lot more than I do about it.

[Entilzha]

Just finished watching Californication episodes 1&2 and I can't stop laughing. Man that's on f#¤ked up stuff.

[Rigil Kent]

I think the last question is up for debate. There were a couple of much larger battles (as in, the Greeks had more forces and the Persians were decidedly owned) after Thermopylae that probably are the reason the invasion failed, but I think what one might argue is that Thermopylae weakened, both in actual number and less quantifiably in spirit, the Persian forces, contributing to their losses in those later battles, like the naval battle at Salamis and the one they show at the end of 300 which I forget the name of. I think that in general, historians view it as a significant weakening of the Persian army such that perhaps the later battles went better for the Greeks than they would have. However, I don't believe any accounts of the Persians of that era survive today, which might shed some light on it from THEIR perspective. Ya never know, the Persian version of the story might tell of little more than the Persians steamrolling over a "small, Greek patrol force"

The battle in the last scene of 300 is at Platea, and I don't think that Linda's assertion about Thermopylae's importance is in error. Because the Greeks held the Hot Gates for three days and killed so many Persians, they effectively won the morale war; given how badly the Persians were trounced at Marathon twelve years earlier, and now this abject disaster, the Persians were terrified of the Greeks. It also completely stopped the advance of the Persian army for three days; that may not seem like much, but given how quickly their army went through foodstuffs and water, it's a pretty important factor. Thermopylae also gave the fractured Greek city-states something to rally behind since, after all, the Spartans had sent one of their kings to the battle. And, of course gave the Greeks time to rally their forces. Yes, Salamis and Platea were technically victories for the Athenians and Spartans respectively, but without Thermopylae, I don't think they would have made it to that point.

Imagine how much more of an impact it would have been if the Greeks weren't betrayed by Ephialtes. A paltry group of 7000 killed 20,000 in two days with relatively few casualties of their own, not to mention the naval stalemate at Artemisium on the same day where a comparatively small Athenian fleet inflicted heavy damage to the Persians. Thermopylae was the most victorious defeat in history.

And come on, any battle that has as many historical one liners as Thermopylae is gotta be cool. I mean ... "come and get them" said in response to the order to throw down their arms? That is soooooooo cool.

[Linda]

I have been interested in the battle of Thermopylea since I became aware of it many years ago. I will definitely look for 300. The Culture of the Spartans and their battle tactics where covered by some documentary with computer animation in the past year or so. Your mention of the Peloponnesian War just reminded me of it. I don't remember particulars, but something the Spartans did with their shields made me think they were a precursor to Roman tactics. Of course the Romans 'borrowed' so much from the Greeks in mythology and technology, etc., that I am not sure if you can consider them separate civilizations. It stuck in my mind that some commentator asserted that Thermopylea was the great turning point for all of what is considered 'Western Civilization'. That might have been for dramatic effect, but it sure sounded good!

[JadziaKathryn]

I'm focusing on British Imperialism, but it always makes me happy to read history discussions!

Has anyone else read Edward Rutherford? I think he's an amazingly talented author. I had London assigned as summer reading for A.P. European History in high school and really enjoyed it. He traced London through several families; the first chapter was set during Celt control, I believe, and the second was during Roman control, etc... fascinating stuff. I've also read The Forest, and have now started Sarum. Those both take place in England and do similar things. Sarum is set in Salisbury Plain, where Stonehenge is. I highly recommend Rutherford. It's all historically plausible, which makes me happy. (I'm well known among friends for demanding historical plausibility and therefore disliking such ridiculous drivel as the movie A Knight's Tale.)

[evcake]

I first became aware of Thermopolae when I saw Richard Egan playing Leonidas. I think the film was called 300 Spartans.
The PBS series The Spartans was fascinating. I highly recommend it.
And two novels for young people by Caroline Snedeker, Theras and his Town and
The Spartan are well worth a look.

[Rigil Kent]

I'm well known among friends for demanding historical plausibility and therefore disliking such ridiculous drivel as the movie A Knight's Tale.

Then stay away from 300, because, while based on actual events, it's very obviously fictionalized. Hell, the Spartans don't even wear their breastplates (which, I suppose, is good for the women out there who want to watch guys who are in ridiculous good shape - for the guys, it's nothing but unadulterated ass kicking where the heroes are the baddest of the bad and it shows) or fight in a phalanx accurately in this movie. The Persians are wildly over-the-top monsters, and Xerxes is almost a giant. Me, I usually get irked at historical inaccuracies in movies, but was okay with it in this one 'cause I saw it for what it was: Greek propaganda. I mean, the narrator of the movie is telling the story to his fellow Greeks, so it stands to reason that he's going to make the bad guys into hideous monsters.

Guilty pleasure: I liked A Knight's Tale, although I can't tell you why. Maybe because it was so ridiculous ...

[Reanok]

I was watching Connor Trinneer's five part interview that Katsiro had posted on You tube. I've seen the first three parts before she removed them from Youtube. It's really disappointing. I wanted to see parts 4 & 5.To find out what else he discussed in the interview.

[JadziaKathryn]

I went to see Stardust tonight and enjoyed it. The film is very unique in a lot of ways. My only quibble, really, was that the hero learned swordsmanship entirely too fast (maybe 4 days?) after it'd been established that he was lousy at it before. But really, it was a good movie.

Edit: While in line to buy my ticket I noticed that the movie theater has Star Trek Voyager: The Arcade Game. It was hard to miss the giant picture of Jeri Ryan in that silver catsuit on the side of the game. (I have no clue how long it's been there, as the last time I went to the movies before this was over a year ago.)

[Elessar]

Doing: Not sleeping

I have Russian tomorrow at 8 am and I can't sleep I was playing Fallout 2 for a few minutes (I think it was more like an hour) just messing around.

Ya know, Rigil, I don't think I can play that game through again. It's just too big and intimidating and I remember it too well for it to be intriguing. What I'm having fun with is reloading my old saved games (I saved games from like 1999) where I had already beat the game and had tons of weapons and perfect stats and all that, just going around doing whatever.

[Reanok]

PBS has a dvd for sale about Greece and the battle of Thernopalye it's was shown on tv last year and was a really accurate look at the Persians and the Greeks military power and weaknesses during the battle they go into the area and filmed reacactments in the area the real battle take splace. Discovery channel also did a bunch programs about this same subject on dvd last year. I saw both these multipart programs they're worth watching.

[Linda]

Reanok, I think that PBS documentary was the one that got me interested in the Spartans again.

[Emberchyld]

Watching: Disney's Ice Princess, for the millionth time. The physics is atrocious (I mean, seriously, if you're going to make a movie about a physics genius, at least get someone with SOME physics knowledge on staff. "By bringing in my arms, I will increase my moment of inertia and therefore, increase the speed of my spin." ), the premise is weak, and the figure skating off-base, but I love it. A majorly guilty pleasure.

Eating: mint-swirled chocolate chips

Doing: Trying not to freeze yet again