Debate of the week: brain meds

[TPoptarts]

Yay or nay?

P.S. Rigil feel free to post

[blacknblue]

Yea if they are medically necessary. Brain meds are no different than any other med. Don;t take them if you don't need them. Do take them if you do need them. Make sure you have a real doctor who gives a damn about you, not just a quack who passes out pills to get you to shut up and leave them alone.

BTW, I am not talking about the disgraceful practice of drugging otherwise normal kids with Ritalin into passivity in order to avoid having to go to the trouble of actually giving them the attention and discipline they require. Using Ritalin to cure an illness is one thing. Used properly it can be a godsend. But in this country, it is often used as a substitute for parents and teachers who can't or won't take the time to do their damn jobs.

Anti-depressants have saved the lives of many people. Medications for Bi-Polar disorder, and many other problems can make a wondrous difference. as long as they are used properly. Find a real doctor. Find one who does their job and does it right. Then do what they tell you and don't mess around with their instructions. The drugs can really help in that case. Otherwise they are a bomb waiting to go off.

[Rigil Kent]

Yea if they are medically necessary. Brain meds are no different than any other med. Don;t take them if you don't need them. Do take them if you do need them. Make sure you have a real doctor who gives a damn about you, not just a quack who passes out pills to get you to shut up and leave them alone.

BTW, I am not talking about the disgraceful practice of drugging otherwise normal kids with Ritalin into passivity in order to avoid having to go to the trouble of actually giving them the attention and discipline they require. Using Ritalin to cure an illness is one thing. Used properly it can be a godsend. But in this country, it is often used as a substitute for parents and teachers who can't or won't take the time to do their damn jobs.

Anti-depressants have saved the lives of many people. Medications for Bi-Polar disorder, and many other problems can make a wondrous difference. as long as they are used properly. Find a real doctor. Find one who does their job and does it right. Then do what they tell you and don't mess around with their instructions. The drugs can really help in that case. Otherwise they are a bomb waiting to go off.

I have nothing to add since I completely agree with this. Completely.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

^ Seconded!

About the Ritalin issue, we have the same problem here in Sweden. And the proponents of it's (over)-use are quite militant. One of the most vocal ones is actually working at the local hospital where I live.

I also agree on what bn'bsaid the anti-depressants. I've seen it work well on people close to me.

[Linda]

It seems that 'real' doctors are getting hard to find. Patients have to be more like informed consumers fighting for their rights under these for profit HMOs.

[Jedikatie]

The only experience I've had with them is phenobarbital, which is a depressant, used to 1. help people sleep and 2. stop seizures. I use it for the latter, and have for over half my life (there was a period of ten years when I didn't take any medicine at all, and didn't have a single seizure).

As a side note, my medicine (quite ridiculously IMO) was often used in old time books, movies and TV shows as the murder weapon of choice. I say it's ridiculous because if the writers had ever actually taken it they'd know that it would be pretty damn hard to kill someone by putting two or three of those pills in a glass of wine or whatever (as they so often show on screen). Not to mention that those pills are not coated, and taste absolutely horrible. Trust me, I know, I've had them stick on my tongue more than once.

And the liquid form... *shudders at the memory* I took that for 2-3 years before I was allowed to take the pills, twice a day, a full one of those medicine spoons each time. It took me two full glasses of water to get the worst of the taste of it out of my mouth, and even then I could still taste it. To this day, I can't take liquid NyQuil (original flavor), because it tastes exactly like phenobarbital's liquid form. I manage to get about a sip down then I start gagging...

Anyway, that's all I've got to say about 'em.

[TPoptarts]

Agreed about ritalin, and about medically necessary.

How do you determine it's like "medically necessary" though? Like since nowdays the FDA classifies everything as a "disease" or "condition" or "disorder" or "imbalance". (To increase the profits of the pharmaceutical companies ) So where's the line between "medically necessary" and "suck it up and deal with it"?

That's pretty much what I'm trying to ask. I mean because I'm sure there has to be a line somewhere or otherwise it would all be like the ritalin abuse

[blacknblue]

Find a doctor.

[TPoptarts]

Dude. I'm not depressed.

[blacknblue]

Whoever needs the meds should find a doctor.

[TPoptarts]

^ How do you know someone needs the meds? That's what I'm trying to figure out

[evcake]

What is it that you think may be the problem. Re: sucking it up. A person is going to have plenty to deal with in this life. Why be miserable while you're at it?

[blacknblue]

^ How do you know someone needs the meds? That's what I'm trying to figure out

DISTRACTED! PAGING DOCTOR DISTRACTED!

[TPoptarts]

Re: sucking it up. A person is going to have plenty to deal with in this life. Why be miserable while you're at it?

Because I think some things should be dealt with instead of taking the easy way out. And our nation is like really notorious for trying to make things way too easy and too many times stuff just becomes like way too complicated in the process. If anyone remembers Rigil's post from the first version of the spontaneous conversation thread

See what 50 years will do:


Scenario: Jack pulls into school parking lot with rifle in gun rack.

1956 - Vice Principal comes over, takes a look at Jack's rifle, goes to his car and gets his to show Jack.

2006 - School goes into lockdown, FBI called, Jack hauled off to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counselors called in for traumatized students and teachers.

++++++++++++++++++++++

Scenario: Johnny and Mark get into a fist fight after school.

1956 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up best friends. Nobody goes to jail, nobody arrested, nobody expelled.

2006 - Police called, SWAT team arrives, arrests Johnny and Mark. Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Scenario: Jason won't be still in class, disrupts other students.

1956 - Jason sent to office and given a good paddling by Principal. Sits still in class.

2006 - Jason given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie. School gets extra money from state because Jason has a disability.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Scenario: Billy breaks a window in his father's car and his Dad gives him a whipping.

1956 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college, and becomes a successful businessman.

2006 - Billy's Dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy removed to foster care and joins a gang. Billy's sister is told by state psychologist that she remembers being abused herself and their Dad goes to prison. Billy's mom has affair with psychologist.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Scenario: Mark gets a headache and takes some headache medicine to school.

1956 - Mark shares headache medicine with Principal out on the smoking dock.

2006 - Police called, Mark expelled from school for drug violations. Car searched for drugs and weapons.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Scenario: Pedro fails high school English.

1956 : Pedro goes to summer school, passes English, goes to college.

2006 : Pedro's cause is taken up by state democratic party. Newspaper articles appear nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against state school system and Pedro's English teacher. English banned from core curriculum. Pedro given diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he can't speak English.

+++++++++++++++++++++

Scenario: Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from the 4th of July, puts them in a model airplane paint bottle, blows up a red ant bed

1956 - Ants die.

2006 - BATF, Homeland Security, FBI called. Johnny charged with domestic terrorism, FBI investigates parents, siblings removed from home, computers confiscated, Johnny's Dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again.

+++++++++++++++++++++

Scenario: Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. Mary, hugs him to comfort him.

1956 - In a short time Johnny feels better and goes on playing.

2006 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in State Prison.

I know I have a really unpopular opinion on this because meds are just so popular nowdays, including brain meds and I'm not saying there's never a need for brain meds. I just think that the way the whole pharmaceutical drugs issue is handled now I think prescriptions for stuff are given like way too easily, and I think many times for stuff people could work out on their own. And I realize people also want things to be easier for them. I just don't think it's always necessary to take drugs instead of working stuff out. I don't know if I'm making any sense. I blame dyslexia

[Distracted]

Well, drugs don't work for dyslexia. We know that. As for other things like anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, attention deficit disorder (the real thing, not the "sedate the kid so we don't have to raise him" version), panic disorder, post traumatic stress disorder, schizophrenia, etc... there's a book compiled by experts in psychology and psychiatry using clinical experience and clinical studies involving groups of patients with similar symptoms and signs. The book is called "The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders". The version currently in use is the fourth revision, so we abbreviate it "DSM-IV". Mental health professionals use interviews, history colllection from patients and hopefully family members, friends, teachers, etc, and sometimes the results of standardized self-scored testing by patients to identify the elements of a disorder listed in the manual. Once a class of disorder is identified, there are treatments, both drugs and, in some cases, talk therapies, which are recommended for each diagnosis. MD's (and even Nurse Practitioners and Psychologists in some states, although I believe that to be a risky practice) can prescribe medications. Talk therapy is usually provided by counselors and psychologists. The criteria for diagnosis and treatment of these conditions is spelled out and straightforward for the most part, although there are many different options for treatment because of the many different types of medications and/or counseling. Most of the medications have significant side effects, as is the case with most medicines that actually DO something. For that reason, patients on psychotropic meds (meds which affect brain function) should be carefully monitored by someone who has sufficient knowledge to identify potential complications early. If used for the correct indication, these medicines are highly effective for the conditions that they were designed to treat, but not every medication works for every patient. Sometimes it's necessary to try several in succession or in combination, and that process is done by trial and error, hopefully by a doctor who really knows what they're doing.

As far as "how do you know if you need meds" is concerned, the answer is...you've got to see a doctor or a clinical psychologist and get an evaluation to determine that. It's really impossible for a person to diagnose him/herself, although I have had people come in to the office and tell me "I'm really anxious and depressed" and they turn out to be right. The symptoms of a chemical imbalance within the brain can be non-specific, though...insomnia, fatigue, irritability, difficulty concentrating, excessive worry, unreasonable fears, vague physical symptoms. In general, I send patients for a psychiatric evaluation whenever they "just don't feel right" to the point where it's keeping them from going to work or class or preventing them from doing what they want to do and I can't find anything physically wrong.