Mary Sue characters

[Linda]

Out of curiosity (and back to a character mentioned in another thread) I did a little web search on the character of Lt. Piper in Diane Carey's first novel. I found the character interesting especially because I like human characters with Vulcan companions. It was a surprise to learn that some fans consider Piper somewhat of an archetypal 'Mary Sue'. She even made it into an article on Mary Sue characters presented at a conference. Here is the reference below.

http://www.merrycoz.org/papers/MARYSUE.HTM

I like the Lt. Piper character. I like to see strong women characters in Star Trek. It occured to me that the reason she is considered a 'Mary Sue' is all the original lead ST characters are male. Therefore any strong female character who helped or out did Kirk and company would be considered a 'Mary Sue'.

Would a male character be considered a Mary Sue? I think there are many male characters that came in and 'saved the day' and for a brief shining moment outshined what are considered the lead characters in the various Star Trek series.

So what REALLY is driving the Mary Sue concept, which seems to have the conotation of amaturish writer? I consider Diane Carey to be a GOOD writer, even in her first novels which I enjoyed very much. But in the Strange New Worlds contest, one of the rules was no Mary Sue stories. Thank goodness we now lead characters in Star Trek like Janeway and T'Pol. At least they are not considered Mary Sue characters, no matter what other labels fans give them. At least they are bonified canonical heroic characters and not 'usurpers'.

Anybody have an opinion on this?

[Rigil Kent]

Therefore any strong female character who helped or out did Kirk and company would be considered a 'Mary Sue'.

That's not how I interpret it. If she is beautiful, and intelligent, and clearly romantic interest for the previously established Main Character (in your example, Kirk), and then promptly "outdid" Kirk in his area of expertise, then yeah, she's a MS. It would sort of be like introducing an ENT season 1 or 2-era female engineer who Trip is attracted to and then having her be a better warp engineer than him, or a smoking hot security babe who is stronger, faster, tougher and all around better than Reed in the area of security.

Would a male character be considered a Mary Sue?

Nope, he'd be a Gary Stu (same thing, different name.)

So what REALLY is driving the Mary Sue concept, which seems to have the conotation of amaturish writer?

I refer you to the excellent definition of a Mary Sue at Google.

[TPoptarts]

Gonna take me a while to read that thing and I've never read any of Diane Carey's stuff, but I think some fans tend to like stretch the "Mary Sue" definition to like every OC that has a prominent role in the plot. I mean when you think about it most canon characters are all like great looking and amazingly intelligent etc etc, and IMO in like "healthy" writing situations for an ensemble of canon characters they occasionally outshine each other. Because otherwise we get like one character with the whole "super" factor like Super!Archer, "I'm better and smarter than everyone else, I save the day when no one else can and I'm the big fat star, bow before me puny universe". Which is like a total cliche and exactly what "Mary Sue" gets blamed for so I do dislike like "Mary Sue" when it's supposed to be like a "god character" or whatever, better than anyone etc. But I honestly see nothing wrong in adding a prominent OC to a canon universe when that character lives up to the standards of other canon characters, like if canon characters are really intelligent why shouldn't the OC be, and if canon characters are required to be like in good physical shape why shouldn't the OC be, and if canon characters occasionally save the day why shouldn't the OC get its day in the sun as well. Not overdone, not underdone. Well like I said though I've never read the book in question.

[CoffeeCat]

I don't think Piper was a Mary Sue.

True, you can run her through a litmus test and she'd have some of the Mary Sue qualities, but she wasn't *smart enough* to be classified as a Mary Sue. Carey even made a convincing argument against Piper being a Mary Sue. She pointed out that Captain Kirk was always a step ahead of Piper in the novels and he was always figuing things out before her. Furthermore, Piper wasn't annoying enough and she didn't take away from the other characters like a real Mary Sue would.

Compare that with a more obvious Mary Sue: Seven of Nine.

[Rigil Kent]

Here here.

I think KTR once jokingly accused me of having a couple of Gary Stu-like characters in my Endeavour series, but, as I told him and make sure to adhere to in the stories, the characters in question are experts in their fields. The TAC officer is good at blowing crap up and shooting things ... ask him to do Science! stuff or Engineer! stuff and he's totally lost...

[TPoptarts]

Well duh they're supposed to be good at what they do. After all a canon character with the same position would.

[CoffeeCat]

After all a canon character with the same position would.

It depends if it's fan fiction or an actual episode. In an actual episode, they'd dumb down the character for the sake of the plot (well, unless it's DS9). Fan fiction writers (I mean the skilled ones) actually care about the characters.

[Rigil Kent]

It depends if it's fan fiction or an actual episode. In an actual episode, they'd dumb down the character for the sake of the plot (well, unless it's DS9).

Case in point: T'Pol and how she inexplicably became mostly incompetent while around Archer (although, to be fair, every character around Archer suffered that fate.)

[TPoptarts]

Well but Archer is a Mary Sue so that's the effect Mary Sues have on their otherwise competent environment.

Hey isn't Fat Riker (TM) like the bigest Mary Sue ever (no pun intended). Well I like him anyway he's fun.

[CoffeeCat]

Well but Archer is a Mary Sue so that's the effect Mary Sues have on their otherwise competent environment.

Hey isn't Fat Riker (TM) like the bigest Mary Sue ever (no pun intended). Well I like him anyway he's fun.

yah - Archer had to have been someone's blasted Mary Sue. I suspect he was Rick Berman's, but I can't be certain.

[CX]

Archer was definately a Gary Stu.

[CoffeeCat]

^ LOL. I call him a "Mary Sue" - make him feel like a girlie man...

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Weasley Crusher was the most obvious "Gary Stu" character in canon Trek. It was obviously Roddenberry's reliving how he'd want to spend his childhood had he been living in the 24th century.

[CX]

I suppose he could be taken that way. Mostly I just saw him as that nerdy Super!kid that was supposed to attract the young male nerd demographic and convince us that even poor pathetic nerds like us can do something important. Sort of like having young Anikan in SW Ep 1 for the little kiddies or a show like Spy Kids.

[CoffeeCat]

I think Roddenberry admitted to having Wesley modeled after himself. He was a Gary/Harry Stu. Actually "Wesley" was Roddenberry's middle name.

(interesting to note that the only other character to be named after Roddenberry was Tom Eugene Paris who was pretty much the anti-Wesley.)