Poll: Do You Want a "Briar Patch"

[Elessar]

We wouldn't call it that but I believe that is still what TrekBBS calls it.

This is a very simple but of course profound question that we're debating at the top: Would you like (in other words would you frequent or would you be comfortable with) the creation of a new area of the forums dedicated to allowing the discussion of that which is "forbidden" (attempted to be forbidden) in the other areas of the Forums? Hot-button issues such as politics, religion, abortion, gay rights, nihilism, whatever.

The caveat to any participation in this area is basically that you give up your right to be offended. That's not to say that direct insults or name calling is to be sanctioned. But with the level of national, religious and cultural diversity we have here, disagreement is likely to be frequent, plentiful, and continuous .

Do you want an area such as this?

[Eian Flannagan]

Aye...especially if it will keep the heat of those topics out of the rest of the forum, I'm all for it. That way, if you don't want any part of politics and/or hot-button topics, you don't have to visit that thread. A "Don't Like, Don't Read" situation not dissimilar to the Decon section.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

A definite No on that!

Considering the meltdown over at TBBS concerning such a place, I'd hate it for that to happen here. And it's more likely than not for disagreements, arguments and hostility to seep over into the rest of the BBS.

Yeah, I know the saying about "but we're all mature adults" blah, blah, etc. But my experience tells me otherwise. People hold beliefs that they feel very strongly about and often, even if they say they don't, will take it personal when those beliefs are attacked. And yes, they will be viewed as "attacked" and not simply "argued against". There's no such thing as "giving up your right to be offended", because you (generic you) will. Trust me on this. Heck, we've seen this here already when we've allowed ourselves to stray from the supposed ban we have here.

When arguments get heated some posters are bound to come to view other posters, who they otherwise and/or up until then liked, in less than favourable light. "He/she must be dumb/mean/naïve/misguided etc. to hold such views. And I thought he/she was so nice." I've seen this happen elsewhere online. And I've found myself thinking the same.

Another complicating matter would be when the Admins and the Site Owner take stands and effectively determine what's out of bounds or not. Some posters will feel intimidated to fully express their views because of this. And those that won't might risk getting warned or banned. And no, stating that the Admins will have an impartial view won't help, because the feeling will be that they won't, and besides, since they have a standpoint they might view an argument that goes counter to their own - or to the perceived majority view - in less favourable terms than others. That's also something we've seen on other forums, such as TBBS.

All this will lead to unnecessary divisions among posters. Or it will lead to one side getting the upper hand - in terms of sheer numbers or perseverance - that the other will just resign and give up. Then we've effectively created a situation where the debate will be very one-sided. And that can be very off-putting to many that might have opinions, even strong ones, but have no desire to express them here. That goes also for non-Americans when Americans start to debate American issues.

Personally, I have very strong opinions, but I have no desire to debate them here. I do that elsewhere. I try to limit myself to talking about such stuff that are Trek-related, things that have come up in Trek episodes and the like, as I do in my reviews. Yeah, I know I could just avoid visiting such a new hot button forum, but it will really spill over no matter what we say. And it will change the dynamic of the entire BBS.

[Alelou]

I can't decide.

I think the ban that we do have should be clearer. I didn't know about it for months. I'm still not completely clear on where the line is and I frankly haven't enjoyed trying to navigate this issue as an admin. I feel like I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

Part of me thinks it makes sense to have a defined place for these debates. KTR is right that it can change the way you think about your board mates, but as I have other friends whose politics are 180 degrees opposed to mine, I'm pretty used to separating that out. And if someone is going to lose my good opinion, which isn't very easy, it will be because of behavior that also shows up in posts that have nothing to do with politics.

But the other part of me thinks I'm probably hanging out too much on a Star Trek board if I really feel the desire to have these discussions here.

So, I think I'll vote "present". But my first point stands. I'd like to see us clarify the ban in a place where even newbies will be aware of it.

[CX]

Cidvision used to have a debate forum that was actually quite well moderated, but it ended up being merged with the Commons Lounge because discussion really fell off in the last year. I'd guess that the same thing would probably happen here - it would be active for a while just after its open, but as issues are discussed and either come to their natural conclusion, or are closed by mods, discussion would take a downturn and the forum would fall into disuse.

[justTripn]

Personally, I don't have any energy for it. That is, I don't have the energy to participate in hot button debates with you all. To the extent that this is an ongoing community, I'd like to steer away from it. I doubt any good can come of it. I am under no illusions that I will change anyone's opinion. At my other club, and in other social contexts, we steer away from these topics, which allows liberals to be best friends with conservatives. In astronomy club we discuss astronomy plus other things unlikely to get people riled up! It's a good long-term strategy. In my mind this board is about Trip 'n T'Pol romance, Enterprise, and Star Trek more generally. I wish that people would get into debating the moral situations set up in the fanfiction stories, but maybe the stories should speak for themselves. I think that people presenting their life situations--this is my experience--is fine. This why I do what I do. No way to argue with that. If I recall correctly, we weren't supposed to discuss the hot-button issues unless it related in some way to Star Trek, but I may be wrong. Strangely enouph it used to be Star Trek itself that got everyone so riled up: The "hot button issues" of female pon farr and the role of women in Vulcan society.

I think if threads get too heated they should be locked, whether the topic is political or Star Trek. I remeber at HoT a thread about "Presuming, 'These are the Voyages' is canon, what might have gone wrong with Trip and T'Pol's relationship." It got locked. LOL

[Aquarius]

Here's my thing: there is a "no politics" rule in place here, yet it's not being followed, even by some of the administrators.

So I agree with Alelou that it needs to be clarified. Not only that, but along with rules, people need to know what the consequences are for breaking them. And then the administrators need to make sure it actually happens. Consistency is the key, whatever you ultimately decide on the issue.

The "no politics" policy is, in my feeling, generally a good idea. I have strictly enforced such a rule at my own board, and there has been a significant lack of drama and wank because of it for over four years. Before that, I moderated at two different Law & Order boards, and because of the subject matter, discussion of political and hot-button issues went hand in hand with discussion of the show, especially with so many "ripped from the headlines" plots...and lets just say, more often than not, the discussions did NOT end well, even though everyone participating were supposedly "mature adults." The problem is, people get so emotionally invested in their beliefs and, right or wrong, they get bent out of shape and frustrated when the person they're arguing with doesn't see it their way. And then you have to factor in the occasional members who aren't so well-armed in the intellectual department, so any challenge to their beliefs is a major threat, so they just kind of spout off angry and insulting things because they can't stick to the issues. In the meantime, some of the people who just came to have a sane, rational debate end up getting chewed up and spit out.

However, some of the members here feel compelled to talk about this stuff any way, so a designated area makes sense if abstaining is not possible, as long as it stays out of the rest of the board. This way, anyone who is uninterested in the subject matter or simply doesn't want to see/deal with the carnage can avoid it by simply not entering the area. Those who do enter at their own risk, fully aware of the "no crying" rule. Outside of that area, political discussion within the context of Enterprise or other Trek incarnations could be permissible, since it is being presented as a work of fiction and not aimed at anyone in particular, right?

If you do decide to go the designated area route, I offer this word of caution: while the political discussion itself would remain in that one area only, hurt feelings, frazzled nerves, frustration, hostility, and irritation with fellow members can often spill over, causing a sense of awkwardness and weirdness in other areas of the board. I'm not saying it's automatically going to turn into a bad episode of the Jerry Springer Show around here; one thing Trek fans usually have in common no matter where you go is a certain degree of tolerance and acceptance of other people. However, individual mileage varies, so I would urge everyone to consider if it's really that important to risk the volatility of having such discussions in a place like this, where we've come to meet new friends and celebrate fandom. Personally, I don't think it's worth it.

[/soapbox]

[Asso]

...religion, abortion, gay rights, nihilism, whatever...

I think this isn't the place. This is not a cultural circle, in my mind, and I agree with those who believe this is "dangerous". The beauty of this site is its levity, in my opinion.
And then... do not forget that there are Trip and T'Pol, in the bottom!

[Elessar]

This is exactly why I'm asking - thank you.

Please, keep voting.

[justTripn]

Also with regard to the "rules," we had a cry for "rules" at my other club. I was extremely reluctant to back a SPECIFIC rules policy (about civil discussion) with all the infractions and penalties spelled out, but because I suspected (and was proved right) that people would use the rules mainly to beat each other over the head with. People would point out infractions and demand "action"! (That someone be kicked off the list or out of the club). I spent endless hours trying to solve these problems (mediate). In the end, I can't force people to kiss and make up, sorry. And so people stormed away. What can you do?

I would like to keep the rules general: Stay away from hot button issues, like religion and politics, outside of Star Trek; be nice; take into account other's feelings. We're all adults, so act like adults. We used to have alot of bashing of people who actually worked on the show. I am totally against attacks on fellow members of the Star Trek community, and I think the writers and producers of the show itself are definately part of that community and should be respected for their contributions. Ultimately, it's Elessar's site and whatever he says goes.

[Alelou]

I don't care how general any rules we have are, I just think they ought to appear somewhere so people have a chance to know them ahead of time and not get bushwhacked.

I also wouldn't mind a "newbie tips" link somewhere for newcomers to the boards -- there are a lot of little tricks of the trade that I took forever to figure out -- like clicking on "view active topics" or hitting the little page icon to get to the unread posts. Or how to put up an avatar. Or how to code your fanfic for italic and so forth. We explain that over and over to individuals. It could be in a Welcome/FAQ page.

I'd be willing to write the first draft if we want it.

[Aquarius]

^ ^Both the above posts are excellent points.

The rules don't have to be all that specific. At my place I think it just says "No hot-button/controversial issues" and then I gave an example, along with a note that since I can't possibly list everything, it's up to my discretion as well as that of the other moderators. Just so long as people have a guideline for what's okay and what's not, it'll work.

This kind of surprised me, but I guess it shouldn't have:

We used to have alot of bashing of people who actually worked on the show.

We used to have a lot of this in Star Wars fandom, too, especially after the Prequels came out because a lot of "purists" felt that George Lucas threw SW under the bus. It never got too bad at my own forum but at places like theforce.net things got pretty heated and out of control for a while. And then there was the severe disappointment many fans (like myself) had in the profic novels, so oftentimes the authors would come under fire. Finally I just posted a guideline to the tune of if you wouldn't want it said about yourself or your good friends, then it shouldn't be said about the actors or any of the creative team. If a member wanted to criticize the writing, the acting, whatever, that was fine, but personal attacks on anyone involved with the films or novels (ie "George Lucas sucks!" or whatever) were no longer permitted.

I don't get the impression that you really have any kind of problem with that kind of stuff around here, though. Like, people rag on Archer, but I've never seen it taken out on Scott Bakula, that kind of thing. Everyone seems to have their heads on straight with that stuff here.

The Welcome and Tips & Tricks is a wonderful idea, too. The one thing I noticed, though, is that sometimes it's hard to get people to actually read it. I go through cycles where I find myself answering all this stuff any way, even though it's right there in print.

[Alelou]

Oh, I think you've missed some of the hot debates here about people involved in the show/scripts/whatever, but I also think everybody survived them. I kind of hope and assume that the people who put on the show already know how fans are.

As far as people missing the info, I'm sure that will happen, but at least we can include a handy link when we reply...

[Reanok]

I voted No.I like this board as a Trip & T'Pol and StarTrek discussion board. Please don't bring hot button issues like Politics etc.to the board as others have said it just makes people disagree and others angry and bad feelings people leaving the board in droves. I've seen this happen way too much on other Trekboards till no went to those Trek boards anymore. I don't want to see arguments to spill to other parts of the board like Trek bbs has over and over again.

[Aquarius]

Oh, I think you've missed some of the hot debates here about people involved in the show/scripts/whatever, but I also think everybody survived them. I kind of hope and assume that the people who put on the show already know how fans are.

As far as people missing the info, I'm sure that will happen, but at least we can include a handy link when we reply...

Yeah, I confess I haven't gone THAT far back into old posts/discussions yet. I'm just going by what I've seen since I've been here. Like I said, it probably shouldn't have surprised me, it's probably universal to any forum devoted to any fandom. Much like with the political/hot button issues, fans can be passionate and feel emotionally invested in the show. I'm sure that the people involved with making the show know that at the end of the day, they can't please everybody, but most of us seem to know that it's not a permission slip to get personal about it if we don't like something. For those who don't...well, that's up to you guys.