I have a doubt.

[evcake]

Yes. It's been a while, though. I like to watch Lance Hendriksen when he has a half-decent part.
Do you mean the part about the hunter and the doe?

Wait - come to think of it, Vulcans don't even touch vegetables with their bare hands.

[Elessar]

yeah, the Hunter-doe part. I didn't think you meant they might be able to hear the animals' thoughts when they touch the MEAT, but that, abstractly, because they can feel the thoughts and emotions telepathically, of an animal by touching it when it's alive, if they ever chose to, they probably have a much more real concept of animals as "just as much alive and right to live" as ourselves, or themselves. After all, what exactly stops us from eating human flesh? And I mean cooked. What's the difference? Humans are better than animals? Well... maybe to Vulcans they're not, because they can sense/hear their thoughts and emotions, as primitive and basic as they might be. It probably gives one a much stronger perception of an intelligence at work there, capable of being conscious of death and fear. I mean here we SAY we know animals probably experience fear, but I think we all still consider it a "programmed" response. I think probably the fact that we consider an animal's response to the threat of death to be instinctual and not intellectual, is part of why it's so easy to consider them 'lesser', and therefore consumable. Maybe if Vulcans can hear their thoughts that's why they don't feel that way.

[Asso]

They're ALIENS. We can hypothesize anything we want to. Personally, I prefer to think of the vegetarianism as a practical response to the virtual extinction of all animal life on their planet after centuries of war, and an ethical response to the need to STOP KILLING everything. If Vulcans don't need B complex vitamins then maybe they don't need any animal derived products at all.

Wonderful! I like it!
Who knows if the dinosaurs...
I take this hypothesis as my own.

[Distracted]

I'm glad you approve.

[evcake]

yeah, the Hunter-doe part. I didn't think you meant they might be able to hear the animals' thoughts when they touch the MEAT, but that, abstractly, because they can feel the thoughts and emotions telepathically, of an animal by touching it when it's alive, if they ever chose to, they probably have a much more real concept of animals as "just as much alive and right to live" as ourselves, or themselves. After all, what exactly stops us from eating human flesh? And I mean cooked. What's the difference? Humans are better than animals? Well... maybe to Vulcans they're not, because they can sense/hear their thoughts and emotions, as primitive and basic as they might be. It probably gives one a much stronger perception of an intelligence at work there, capable of being conscious of death and fear. I mean here we SAY we know animals probably experience fear, but I think we all still consider it a "programmed" response. I think probably the fact that we consider an animal's response to the threat of death to be instinctual and not intellectual, is part of why it's so easy to consider them 'lesser', and therefore consumable. Maybe if Vulcans can hear their thoughts that's why they don't feel that way.

I think I remember a couple of stories in which T'Pol can hear Porthos' thoughts. "Give me cheese" mostly.

[JadziaKathryn]

think I remember a couple of stories in which T'Pol can hear Porthos' thoughts. "Give me cheese" mostly.

Those annoyed me, as they seemed to take telepathy overboard.

[CX]

Mmm... Taste the FEAR....

But you're all forgetting about what Spock said when he regressed in All Our Yesterdays (IIRC) - "I have eaten the flesh of an animal... and enjoyed it." Which very much suggests that despite the Vulcan claim of being all logical and unemotional, that for at least one thing, they are emotional.

[Distracted]

That's the point. CX. They're OVERLY emotional. It nearly destroyed their entire civilization. I amuse myself imagining the temper tantrums that must ensue when Vulcans hit the Terrible Twos.

[blacknblue]

Some people enjoy inflicting pain and fear. Don't for get that. Some people are like cats, they like to play with their prey. In fact, given the nearly universal cruelty displayed by Human children I would venture to suggest that our predatory instincts tend to predispose all of us toward that type of behavior unless we are carefully and thoroughly trained away from that sort of behavior from babyhood upward.

And I also maintain, while I am being annoying, that the only true vegetarians are Vegans. People who eat animal products in any form are not vegetarian. They are omnivores. And anyone who wears leather, or uses any product (including glue, crayons, or a Looong list of other products ubiquitous in modern society) that is made with animal parts, ever slaps a mosquito or a fly, or ever kills anything like a venomous insect or snake in self-defense has no business criticizing someone else for eating beef. Even though I have many times been subjected to such criticism by folks who apparently believe that their personal lifestyle choice provides them with the moral authority to dictate my lifestyle choices.

[Distracted]

But BnB, don't you see the difference between killing a bug and murdering some poor defenseless herbivore? The first option is squashing something before it feeds on you or contaminates your environment. The other poor wide-eyed and innocent furry creature is just living his life, minding his own business, chewing his cud... and then WHAM! Right between the eyes! (And boy, isn't he juicy on a bun. )

[Mitchell]

Innocent?!?
Ill be honest, their have been more then a few bovine over the years, That Ive been damn glad to ship off, an have em stamped out into hundreds of beef patties.


Me thinks far to many Salad shooters, havent been around critters enough. Or just havent had the shit kicked out of them by one yet. All it would take for one male Veggie to convert in an istant, is to get kicked strait between the legs by a heifer that Knew exactly what she was doing. An that feller will be breakin out the steak knife... as soon as the Ice pack is no longer needed that is.

[evcake]

My grandmother had a cow. Pride, her name was. There was nothing innocent about her. To this day, I would gladly eat a Prideburger, but I'm trying not to eat too much red meat.

[JadziaKathryn]

And I also maintain, while I am being annoying, that the only true vegetarians are Vegans. People who eat animal products in any form are not vegetarian. They are omnivores. And anyone who wears leather, or uses any product (including glue, crayons, or a Looong list of other products ubiquitous in modern society) that is made with animal parts, ever slaps a mosquito or a fly, or ever kills anything like a venomous insect or snake in self-defense has no business criticizing someone else for eating beef. Even though I have many times been subjected to such criticism by folks who apparently believe that their personal lifestyle choice provides them with the moral authority to dictate my lifestyle choices.

Well, I agree with Dis about some of this stuff. Say there's a tick on you. It might be carrying Lyme disease. Now, you could pull it out and let it go free, where it may bite you (or your family, or your pets) again and cause more Lyme disease worry. And, of course, it will reproduce. Or, you can stick it in rubbing alcohol and feel better that there's one less tick that could make you sick and spawn more ticks that would do the same. It's downright logical! That's a big difference compared to going out and saying, "I'm hungry. Look! A chicken! I'll just grab the knife..." (Note: I love chicken. I personally don't kill animals except bugs 'cause I'm squeamish, but I enjoy eating meat. So I go to the grocery store and get a package of boneless skinless chicken breast.)

Anyway, bnb's statement raises interesting questions about Vulcan society. What do they think about wearing leather and/or fur? I doubt they approve. How do they deal with insects that are not only annoying, but unsanitary and possibly deadly? There's more wiggle room there, as long as nobody tries to tell me that Vulcans get telepathic vibes from mosquitos. Hmm, it occurs to me that my vegetarian best friend said something about animal products in ranch dressing. Would Vulcans compile a great big list of Earth foods that don't look like they have animal products but do?

[CX]

I'm pretty sure Bnb is talking about one of those self-declared "death free" people.

[blacknblue]

Yup.

Reminds me of an episode long ago in my college days when a young woman was tearfully screaming at a young man on the sidewalk in front of the student union that he was (fill in the blank with the expletive of your choice) because he was a hunter.

She had just left the student union after eating a cheeseburger I think. Been many years now, so I could be wrong. But you get the idea.

Principle is, I despise hypocrisy. I don't mind tolerance as long as people are consistent. But if someone is gonna jump on me, they better get the beam out of their own eye before they pick motes out of mine. Anyone who gets sick and willingly takes an anti-biotic, designed to KILL the micro-organisms inside them that are making them sick, has no business fussing at me for killing a rattlesnake in my front yard. Anyone who eats yogurt, knowing that it contains living organisms, has no business fuming at me for eating meat.

Just my opinion. YMMV.