Things that didn't make sense in "the_abomination"

[Silverbullet]

Alelou, I would have liked at least one instance of T-Pol showing some concern for Trip in Sim a quick visit to the sickbay, asking Phlox about him, anything.

T-Pol was not close enough to Archer to cry over hm. so he was the Captain, he had no business going on that suicide mission. She had accepted the role of First Officer and knew of its responsibilities if she couldn't handle it she should have stepped down. That whole scene was stupid and pointless. Dammit she broke the heart of the man she Seduced and probably loved why should she get emotional over Archer.

[Alelou]

Well, no point in arguing further saying the same exact things... we'll just have to disagree on that one.

There are many nice fanfics of T'Pol and others visiting Trip in sickbay. You could always write your own take on it...

[Escriba]

Ooooh, I forgot to nag you about that story, Escriba! I LOVE it now. You should post it for real.

(But yeah, it does need just a quick beta.)

I don't know, it really didn't turn out as I wanted. I'm not very satisfied with the result

T'Pol cries several times, actually. She gets tears in her eyes when Sim tells her he has feelings for her, she cries, tears down her cheeks and all in Azati Prime (when Archer leaves) and she cries when her mother dies. I looked on the big HD TV! I would bet my life that she cries when Elizabeth dies, too.

Yes, but I'm sure she only was aware of crying in "Azati Prime". When her mother died, it's tru, she cries, but I think she's in denial of her feelings at the moment and not entirely in her right mind, so to speak.

Alelou, I would have liked at least one instance of T-Pol showing some concern for Trip in Sim a quick visit to the sickbay, asking Phlox about him, anything.

T-Pol was not close enough to Archer to cry over hm. so he was the Captain, he had no business going on that suicide mission. She had accepted the role of First Officer and knew of its responsibilities if she couldn't handle it she should have stepped down. That whole scene was stupid and pointless. Dammit she broke the heart of the man she Seduced and probably loved why should she get emotional over Archer.

Actually, I think that T'Pol not visiting Trip in Sickbay was in character for her. Notice her face when Archer tells her Trip is in a coma, it's the same face she had when they discovered the hidden listening post in P'Jem: absolute shock. It's emotionally too much for her to come to terms with it. So no visits to Sickbay and no asking Phlox, because that would mean she's somehow accepting it and she can't do that. That's why she almost didn't have any kind of relationship with Sim (as the teen Sim accused her of.) T'Pol is an expert living in denial.

That's why I think crying for Archer is logic (no pun intended.) For starters, it isn't a pointless scene, since it shows an "out of character" moment for her, a circumstance later developed in "Damages" (right or wrong I'm not discussing, but it's developed.) And second, she cries for Archer because she can. You don't always cry for the people you most care for. Crying is a way to express your feelings, to externalize them. People who are really reserved or incommunicative have real problems to cry, specially for things that affect them deeply. Archer is her friend. T'Pol knows friendship, she can come to terms with his loss, because she had colleagues before. It's something that she can cry about.

I bet that if it was Trip the one going away, she couldn't even talk for an entire week. Because that would have really affected her. T'Pol is very much like that: she's shocked for some feelings, then she feels fear, she decides to withdraw, she tries to cope with them or to try to solve the problem on her own and when she can't is when she opens herself.

[panyasan]

Alelou, I would have liked at least one instance of T-Pol showing some concern for Trip in Sim a quick visit to the sickbay, asking Phlox about him, anything.

In Similtude the first scene: you can see on her face that T'Pol is very distressed. Further in this episode, she tries to comfort Sim when he visits her.
In Observers Effect she is clearly distressed - if you look at her facial expressions by Trips condition, also she asked the captain - with a soft trembling midsentence in her voice - to notify her instantly if the condition of Trip changes and she gently and full of emotion puts her hand on Trips body when he is in sickbay.
And I just read Escriba's post. She says it much better then I did.

[Silverbullet]

Escriba, I miss your logic about T-Pol crying for Archer because she can. So what. that is no reason for her to Cry. Out of character, certainly. If it were because of the TD then I could go along with her Emotions being mixed up. But she is Logical and Logic would tell her that while Archer is a friend he is not an intimate friend as trip is. she could voice concern about his m ission but crying? No. I don't see it. but then it may because I am male and tend to hide my emotions.

Similtucde. I did write a story on that but erased it. It was a love story between TnT. Believe it or not that could be written. But I need a little more writing experince to go back to that story.

[Escriba]

Oh, yes, I forgot tears are something that depend of one's culture and heritage

T'Pol crying because she can means exactly what I said. It's depression, which comes just before acceptance. If it was Trip, on the other hand, denial, denial and more denial. More or less like Trip himself with his sister: holding on until he couldn't take any more.

But, if it makes you happier, we can say that she cried out of frustration for being stuck in a lousy situation. Frustration makes great tears

[Asso]

What strange thoughts, Escriba. Really. Honestly, they seem to me a little contrived, without offence. But, obviously, it's natural that each of us tries to find a way to demonstrate his own ideas, and his perceptions.

[Alelou]

If it was Trip, on the other hand, denial, denial and more denial. More or less like Trip himself with his sister: holding on until he couldn't take any more.

Yep, I think you're on to something there.

If you want to discuss that first story more, we should probably switch to PM, but I don't think you should just abandon it. Though I guess you at least did post it here, in a way. (There, you got your Vulcan face!)

[Escriba]

What strange thoughts, Escriba. Really. Honestly, they seem to me a little contrived, without offence. But, obviously, it's natural that each of us tries to find a way to demonstrate his own ideas, and his perceptions.

None taken

I know it sounds weird, OK? But the fact that T'Pol is crying two minutes after Archer tells her he goes in that mission proves that it doesn't reflect any deep feelings. Two months after it happened? Sure. But only two minutes after? Quick emotional response not more meaningful than crying over a sad movie. With an example: Imagine that a doctor tells you that somebody important to you is dying, would you cry instantly over it or would you deny it and cry when you accept it (a little long after)?

Deep emotional responses aren't so quick, except if you are actually seeing the corpse of your loved one covered in blood or something like that (you know, something brutal, actual, graphic.) But Archer telling T'Pol he goes in a suicidal mission and then she crying over it not even ten minutes after is "Oh, so sad, I'll miss him, pass me the potatoes."

But this is just my 2 cents, and I'm weird for emotions anyway (just like T'Pol), so you now...

[Asso]

... But this is just my 2 cents, and I'm weird for emotions anyway (just like T'Pol), so you now...

That is surely not contrived, is it?
And it's a perfect demonstration that, behind any of our sensations and of our ideas about our loved couple (as about any other thing) there's us, the woman or the man we are.

[Escriba]

And I've just noticed that I made a mistake. T'Pol cries after Archer's signal dissapears, not after he tells her he's going in that mission.

My fault.

Forget everything I've said

... But this is just my 2 cents, and I'm weird for emotions anyway (just like T'Pol), so you now...

That is surely not contrived, is it?

No, no, that was for real

[Silverbullet]

Damn, I have another Episode to watch again. Now I am not sure when she started crying. I believed that she folllowed him said "I don't want you to die" the returned to the ready room started to cry at the window, a couple tears, no more. Sat down and when Trip tried to get her out to the brdige she ordered him out in a rather nasty tone.

Everyone sees something different in an episode I guess.

My Heart may be a little hard but I believe that T-Pol is too logical and too much in control of her emotins at that time to boo Hoo over anyone. Vulcans don't show their emotions publicly and that is about as public as you can get with showing emotions. To me it just does not make good sense at all other than the writers jerking T-Pol around again.

[pdsldl]

She starts to tear up on the bridge when Archers shuttle passes through the grid and goes to the ready room and has a mini break and tears. I took it as the the groundwork for the TD coming up and her inability to control emotions she would have normally suppressed. I can see where the reality of Archer, who she considered somewhat of a friend, and being thrust into command with the weapon still looming over them and finding she had real control issues as being too much for any one to handle.

[Silverbullet]

She did have control issues. She lost it when the Reptilians attacked at the end she was just sitting in the Captains chair frozen not in command of herself or the ship. Not good.

It was evident when Trip tried to get her to come out to the Bridge where she was needed. she blew up at him and told him to get out.

Frankly Episode stank. Archer had no business going on that mission. Travis who
could pilot the insectoid ship and was expendable should have taken the mission. ARcher who supposedly was not expendable should have trusted his subordinates more.

That is reality but the writers wanted to have Archer caught tortured and released after having partially convinced Degra that he was teling them the truth.

I did like the byplay of trip and t-Pol when she tried to take the shuttle. Trip did what he should have done earlier, take command.

[Aquarius]

Escriba, I miss your logic about T-Pol crying for Archer because she can. So what. that is no reason for her to Cry. Out of character, certainly. If it were because of the TD then I could go along with her Emotions being mixed up. But she is Logical and Logic would tell her that while Archer is a friend he is not an intimate friend as trip is. she could voice concern about his m ission but crying? No. I don't see it. but then it may because I am male and tend to hide my emotions.

Well, the fact of the matter is, she WAS on Trellium D, so her emotional control WAS faltering. And yes, Archer WAS her friend.

I mean...wouldn't you be emotionally moved if you thought a friend of yours was dead, regardless if there were other people you were "closer" to? Or are you saying that if you're closer to someone else other than the dead one in question, you should feel nothing, simply for the fact that someone else is closer? Sorry, but that's what your argument seems to hinge on.

It's not really that big of a stretch. Her emotional control was messed up, so she expressed emotions she'd ordinarily suppress. And her being in love with Trip does NOT negate the feelings of friendship, respect, and camaraderie she'd feel for Archer. Her feelings of love for Trip and her feelings of friendship for Archer don't have to be mutually exclusive, and I think it would be rather one-dimensional if they were.