Daily science stuff

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

I obviously meant we humans of the free world, not humans from a Communist dictatorship.

[Elessar]

Ellesar, When the chinese reach Parity with the U.s. Navy they will come after us. Navy, right now is what is stoppping them we can intercept, sink, troop Transport which the chinese would need for a landing, foothold and then ferry more troops. couldn't do it by air as our Airfoce could stop that.

What worries me is that China is still in the Space Program. An attack from space would be almost impossible to stop so if they orbit Nuclear bombs (I know, by treaty that is not to be done) but since when has China ever abided by treaty if it is not in their intersts.)

NASA should approach the Space Program as part of the National Secuirty. that tmight get them a little more Money. Congress loves tossing money at that.

You make a valid point... I think there's probably something to be said about the subconscious intent of the space program of the 1960's and 70's as a means for further defense applications. In fact, the early fall of the Soviet Union relative to the rise of Communist China may have been a serious setback for us because, if the Chinese had risen as a nuclear and space power while Russia was still around, and THEN the Soviet Union had fallen -- say in the middle of or in the late 90's -- we may not have suspended so much of the money being used on the space program under the auspices of Red Panic.

A lot of people look back at the 60's and 70's and see the fact that we were spending more on space and more interested in space as a nation as an indicator that we were more idealistic and hopeful... The unfortunate reality is probably that Congress was able to justify throwing money at it because a bunch of Generals and Admirals had had behind-closed-doors discussions with the House Armed Services Committee and National Strategic Defense Committees on the tremendously useful first strike capability one has by putting launch platforms in orbit, or even just by the ancillary technological understanding of rocket flight and guidance gained from NASA that could also be used on ICBMs.

In other words, we were probably only spending money on it because in addition to fulfilling the dreams of idealists, it was making the people who sign the money over feel safer at night at the thought of being able to cut down missile flight times to mainland Soviet targets from like 40 minutes to 10 minutes when fired from an orbital platform.

Of course the 90's came with the fall of the SU and the Berlin Wall and the need for strategic posturing and stockpiling. Unfortunately, the "sleeping beast" this time was China.

From a militaristic and political perspective, they say that more and more influential positions in China are being taken by younger, more Western moderates -- and thus that we don't have to worry as much in the next 20 years about an armed confrontation. Whether or not that's true, I'm sad to say that I am nationalistic enough to believe that ANY China being first in space over the U.S., or having a better science & math education, or having a higher level of average healthcare, or higher average literacy -- or first in anything for that matter -- is probably not in our interests.

[justTripn]

Oh, which reminds me. Recently declassified documents reveal a completely different story with regard to the Russians beating the U.S. into space with Sputnik. Yes, it is true they were first, but Eisenhower had ordered a secret program to get a satellite into space and it was all ready and waiting for the "International Year of Science." As Elessar said, the true reason we wanted to get a satellite in space was that our spy planes were being shot down over the Soviet Union and we wanted to get higher where the spy cameras couldn't get shot down. But no one knew how a satellite would be accepted, what its legal status would be. That is why they wanted to frame it as part of a contribution to "The International Year of Science." Well, when Sputnik when up, the whole world was thrilled. No one cried foul. So the U.S. went, "Great. This is even better from a diplomatic standpoint." Then the American public went shouting at Eisenhower that he had dropped the ball. He had to stand there and look stupid rather than reveal that we already had the same capability. To his credit, he took that secret to his grave.

I heard the story on a "Nova." Here is the website:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sputnik/

[Silverbullet]

JT, you are right but first it had to be shoved down eisenhowers throat. He wa not an immaginative man. True, he did see the usefulness of a Road system like the autobahns and for the same reasons "Military"

Spy satellites in addition to saving US spy planes from being shot down could be positioned over known Soviet Military targets. they aslo gave us an Early warning system that was superior to the DEW line. Good return for money spent. But that came after Eisenhower left office. The satellite program that Eisenhower finally backed was for propaganda purposes. Gary Powers getting shot down did give some incentive tothe Generals and Admirals and the Defense department. There were some visionaries in Defense.

Our biggest, and real threat, is in the line of Chinese Missile armed Nuclear subs on both Coasts. Most of our major cities are on the coasts. A sudden attack on these cities would still have to be followed up with Troop landings and our Navy could still stop that.

However, space Platforms or even Orbiting Nuclear weapons give me chills to think of. The Chinese space Program is progressing.

Cheerful aren't I

[Alelou]

On the plus side, the Chinese economy would collapse if they destroyed their primary market -- us. Not to mention all those dollars they're hoarding would be pretty worthless.

But of course, one doesn't wish to rely on economics for one's security, especially when dealing with dictatorships.

[Elessar]

On the plus side, the Chinese economy would collapse if they destroyed their primary market -- us. Not to mention all those dollars they're hoarding would be pretty worthless.

But of course, one doesn't wish to rely on economics for one's security, especially when dealing with dictatorships.

True, there's a school of thought that says global power in the 21st century will be won at the cash register (exports) rather than the muzzle of a weapon.

I am very very eager to see how the coming remake of "Red Dawn" handles this paradox of -- 'How do the Chinese make it profitable and/or beneficial to them to invade the U.S.?' Ya know, dirty bombs (neutron bombs) might accomplish this purpose. Killing people in a very specific place (like a military base) without destroying infrastructure.

While I share Alelou's feelings that an all-out annihilation of our society wouldn't help China much financially, sometimes, as the AF Colonel in the first Red Dawn put it, "Two toughest kids on the block I guess... sooner or later, they're gonna fight. Maybe somebody just forgot what it felt like." Those lines were delivered in kind of a campy movie, but I think the insight is actually quite penetrating. For all our rationalizations and our ideology, in the last 100 years we have been known to act out of territoriality, vengeance, and sometimes just plain barbarism (see the treatment of both American and Japanese POW's and casualties in the Pacific).

Even though it wouldn't necessarily be the smartest thing for China to do in the economic short run, they may see a world without the United States at the helm as a world where they can prosper for the next 100 years. Don't forget who was on top in 1910 in the world and who was 2nd fiddle: The United Kingdom and the United States. While it was not a war between the two that derailed the U.K.'s superiority, it was the resulting crippling of Britain's economy that allowed the U.S. to rise to the position we've been at... which we've kind of squandered in the last 10 years by throwing money in the form of cruise missiles at a bunch of idiots that can't hurt us anyway. Lack of foresight. We could've used a Cold War general in the Pentagon these last few years. They'd have seen how foolish it was to overextend and exhaust our military might on such an insignificant enemy. The 21st century equivalent of chasing a tiny band of Indians from Virginia to Texas only to have the Redcoats show up and defeat you because your forces are tired, hungry, cold and out of ammo.

Sorry we've SERIOUSLY derailed this thread.

/OT

[Alelou]

I'd worry about China in as much as they are constantly hacking away at us covertly, but frankly I'd be just as worried about Russia, which is busy doing the same ... if I'm going to worry. Honestly, in a nuclear world anyone who starts a war between any of these three powers is suicidal at best. I think it's more realistic to worry about the insignificant enemies who think they can suddenly become a lot more significant really fast with a nuke, especially if they are crazy enough not to care what it means for their own people.

[Distracted]

The major powers won't start the war. I firmly believe that if WWIII happens that honor will go to the traditional combatants in the Middle East, especially now that Iraq is threatening to become nuke-capable. But the major powers will finish it. Maybe we should all get the GPS location of EK's farm so we can head there as soon as the news breaks about the brand new radioactive parking lot in the Middle East.

[Alelou]

You mean Iran, yes?

Those pesky I-countries.

[Distracted]

Yeah, I guess so. My hubby forces me to watch Fox news while I chat online with you guys. I don't pay very close attention.

[enterprikayak]

So. Now that you have this survival ranch out there in the Canadian highlands... Probably a good 200 miles from any popular primary targets of any potential nuclear powers .... Maybe we can combine our resources: my arsenal for your shelter . Should I make my way up there with my arsenal if TSHTF?

I can sew. Can I come?

Count us in. We'll provide medical care and share hunting duties. And the swords. We have swords, bows, arrows, throwing knives, hatchets, pikes, polearms and pickaxes. Take yer pick. ..... Maybe we should all get the GPS location of EK's farm so we can head there as soon as the news breaks about the brand new radioactive parking lot in the Middle East.

I wonder how we would all get along? We should do up a proposal for UPN: friends from a Star Trek bulletin board all get put together to live on a vegetarian fainting goat farm in Canada. Who survives? Who gets neck pinched? Tonight after America's Next Top Model...

[Alelou]

I wonder how we would all get along? We should do up a proposal for UPN: friends from a Star Trek bulletin board all get put together to live on a vegetarian fainting goat farm in Canada. Who survives? Who gets neck pinched? Tonight after America's Next Top Model...

I'm sure it would be very amusing to watch, if not to actually experience.

[justTripn]

I wonder how we would all get along? We should do up a proposal for UPN: friends from a Star Trek bulletin board all get put together to live on a vegetarian fainting goat farm in Canada. Who survives? Who gets neck pinched? Tonight after America's Next Top Model...

Well that show would certainly have an interesting and diverse caste of characters. I'd watch! But I'm not brave enough to be on the show. Beware: with all these aspiring writers at this site, one day any of you could wake up to find you've turned into a character in a best-selling novel.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Well, let's hope your Congress will put a stop to these plans of killing the manned space program:

Obama's NASA facelift faces tough fight in Congress

"NASA facelift"? Now that's an understatement!

[Asso]

Yeah.