"Divergent Paths" Discussion

[aadarshinah]

True as that may be, I've always found it easier to get warm when it's cold (ie, blankets, fire, etc) than cool when it's hot (which has a far more limited number of options). And they do have exceptional body heat. A group of proto-Vulcans huddled togeter would probably get pretty warm...

[Kotik]

I'm bitterly disappointed with the new chapter. Why do we get the 'I push you away' shit again? Isn't there anybody who can write a story, where T'Pol doesn't freak out after boinking the ChEng? What the heck? They've been marooned for a year and finally they do it, and what do we get? More gratitious angst, permission to puke!!!
Rigil, you've done a fabulous job with this story, but that 'afterthought' junk was just bad

[aadarshinah]

I actually thought it was pretty well done, Kotik. She's not actually pushing him away, she's just confused, which I think is understandable in T'Pol's situation. She's questioning everything about herself, what it means to be a Vulcan, and so on, and is dealing with their relationship in a very Vulcan way. She and Trip are from two entirely different species/cultures and their expectatations are different...

[Thot]

Personally I find the last chapter the best "the talk next morning" scene ever writen.

Trip even offers the retreat option to her, but she reacts automatically to hold on to him. I mean, a Vulcan to react out of instinct concerning somebody else is probably the most obvious sign of affection you can expect without "alienating" T'Pol. *sorry for the pun*

Angst is the last thing I would associate with this chapter, since the question isn't if she stays with Trip but how she precisely handle it.

A very good example for 'challange your reconception or they challange you'.

[Rigil Kent]

I'm bitterly disappointed with the new chapter. Why do we get the 'I push you away' shit again?

Methinks you need to read the chapter again and actually pay attention to the subtext of what's happening, sir, instead of getting your panties in a twist because things didn't go exactly the way you wanted them to. Where was this so-called "I push you away" in the chapter? Trip called her on the 'go away' vibes, she explained why she ran away and ... huh. They had sex again. And she stated point-blank that she didn't want them to stop having sex. Even though the sensations she's experiencing during intercourse run counter to everything her upbringing and culture say is possible. So how exactly does that translate to her pushing him away? Because even by the most twisted definition I can envision, it's the exact opposite.

More gratitious angst, permission to puke!!!

Whatever, dude. Nothing I do in a story is gratuitous. Nothing. Everything has a reason. Did it totally escape your notice the reason why she freaked out or where you too busy throwing a fit because I didn't include puppies and rainbows?

Rigil, you've done a fabulous job with this story, but that 'afterthought' junk was just bad

To which I again say "whatever."

[Brandyjane]

Over the past few days I just read all sixty-six chapters of "Divergent Paths." WOW! I really, really like how Trip is portrayed. (Now I'm going to go back and skim through this conversation so that I can come back and participate without derailing the flow of things.)

[enterprikayak]

actually pay attention to the subtext of what's happening, sir, instead of getting your panties in a twist

[Misplaced]

I didn't see any angst at all. I see a very perplexed T'Pol, but one who has no interest in letting go of what she's now got -- even if it confuses her.

I'm just sad because my gut tells me that the next chapter is going to be back on Enterprise... and as much as I do care what happens to those folk.... I'm not ready to be done with TnT -- even for one chapter! LOL

[panyasan]

(First totally OT: Misplaced: what awesome avatar. It maked me very curious about your next story, if only because in my little universe "Karik" is the name of T'Pols father and I know what karik'es in Vulcan means. Just have to wait patiently).

I liked the new chapter. Honestly, I was somewhat disappointed by the beginning, but that's just because I am such a sucker for "TnT waking up next to each other"-scenes. I had to chew on this chapter, but I do think it's an interesting development.
Frankly, if you are brought up in a strict Vulcan enviroment and always been told "just endure it" and there is no enjoyment, it is logical that T'Pol is tossed between confusion what she is been told and her own enjoyment.

It reminded me a bit of part of the movie "Memories of a geisha" where a young girl is becoming so popular as a geisha that she is offered to the highest bidder to gain more standing. It's a sort of business deal and she is told "this is what happens, he does this (the wording is almost funny if it wasn't so tragedic'') and you just have to endure it". No enjoyment or interest in what she wants. Now that's not the whole truth for human sexuality either.

Now I don't buy it for a minute that bonded/married Vulcans don't enjoy their intimate relations. It depends on the couple, but there are a number of Vulcans how expressed that there was affection between them and their spouse (T'Les, Tuvok), so that affection could easy lead to enjoyment during their intimate relations (yes I do love that word ). So T'Pol isn't un-Vulcan, she hasn't been told the whole truth. Which doesn't surprise me. Vulcans is general are relutant to speak about this subject. Maybe T'Les has planned a little talk before T'Pols marriage.

Back to the chapter: for me the best part was when Trip said that if it made T'Pol uncomfortable then they would have no sex anymore. I really felt Trip was being really sweet, but more then that: he loves her, so he gives her room, instead of thinking of his own needs. I really thought that was great of him.
I was surprised about T'Pol taking the iniative again, but then again it's shows T'Pol want to be with him. (BTW: Trips musing about Archer made me want to shout to Trip that he should let go. She has chosen you Trip for all the good and logical reasons, so be happy about it.)

[Transwarp]

personally I find the last chapter the best "the talk next morning" scene ever written.

I must agree with Thot. This was indeed one of the best 'morning after' scenes I've encountered. It is a VAST improvement over the next-morning crap from 'Harbinger.' (Although that really isn't saying much. The classified ads in the newspaper would have been an improvement over THAT.)

I liked it and saw no angst, gratuitous or otherwise. Just a well-written continuation to a well-written story.

[Kotik]

I liked the new chapter. Honestly, I was somewhat disappointed by the beginning, but that's just because I am such a sucker for "TnT waking up next to each other"-scenes. I had to chew on this chapter, but I do think it's an interesting development.
Frankly, if you are brought up in a strict Vulcan enviroment and always been told "just endure it" and there is no enjoyment, it is logical that T'Pol is tossed between confusion what she is been told and her own enjoyment.

Mirrors my thoughts. That's why I got my knickers in a twist, as Rigil so eloquently put it. I don't know, but somehow nothing screams "Oops I didn't want that to happen" louder than abandoning the guy in bed and running off after a rather hot night together. Somehow there's heaps of stories like that and I don't like it and I do still think that Rigil's story didn't need it at all.

She goes for round 2 when Trip calls her on her 'go away vibes', so where was the logic in running away in the first place and of all things, she's confused about enjoying it I don't think it really fits. I mean, they've been sleeping under one blanket for almost a year and unless I'm reading too much between the lines, I think the reasoning has been going beyond mere warming up for quite a while. So T'Pol should have gotten the fax by then, that his presence is somewhat agreeable.

It's Rigil's story and he calls the shots, but I still think after all the rather mature buildup of their relationship, the sudden afterthoughts do not fit in. Just my two non-Vulcan credits

[Misplaced]

(First totally OT: Misplaced: what awesome avatar. It maked me very curious about your next story, if only because in my little universe "Karik" is the name of T'Pols father and I know what karik'es in Vulcan means. Just have to wait patiently).

Ah yes... that story is in the works, but it's not close to time to start posting it. But good call in connecting my avatar with a fic I'm working on.

And to make my post legal: Kotik... Here is my take on what transpired in that chapter. If we take into account that a). T'Pol has been taught that sex is merely a bodily function that does not provide any pleasure and b). despite the maturation of their relationship, TnT have not slept together until this point, then I think it's perfectly reasonable that she would be shocked when she finds it quite enjoyable. It makes sense to me that she would need to go clear her head and try to understand why it was so great if being a Vulcan, it's not supposed to be. It would be logical for her to question this new development.

But here is the thing, she's not running away from Trip. She's not pulling back from him. She was completely honest with him and then when he graciously offered to put a damper on their sex life, she refused. Where is the angst there? Seriously, the most angsty part for me was Trip still being hung up on the idea she would have developed this relationship with any ol' guy she was straded with. It's Trip who needs a little smack upside the head, not T'Pol.

[Rigil Kent]

Over the past few days I just read all sixty-six chapters of "Divergent Paths." WOW! I really, really like how Trip is portrayed. (Now I'm going to go back and skim through this conversation so that I can come back and participate without derailing the flow of things.)

Welcome aboard!

So T'Pol isn't un-Vulcan, she hasn't been told the whole truth.

Which kind of tracks with Trip's opinion, but may or may not be the truth of the matter. Time will tell.

BTW: Trips musing about Archer made me want to shout to Trip that he should let go. She has chosen you Trip for all the good and logical reasons, so be happy about it.

Yeah, but his thoughts are grounded in something I hoped would be believable - this whole bond thing is new to him & T'Pol can't exactly explain it, so the question as to whether or not she'd have this sort of connection with any other male (Archer included) if she were stranded planetside with them is a valid one. I've already stated my thoughts about that before (very possible, not as likely and certainly not in this relatively short span of time with anyone other than Trip), but it is a valid thing to wonder about ("is she with me by default? Am I her second choice?"), particularly since T'Pol doesn't exactly talk about her feelings, ya know?

nothing screams "Oops I didn't want that to happen" louder than abandoning the guy in bed and running off after a rather hot night together.

It's canonical that Vulcans do not require as much sleep as humans, so it would be completely illogical on her part to just lay there in bed, doing nothing and not addressing her confusion in the only way she knows (meditation.) You'll note that Trip thought nothing of her absence when he woke up until he couldn't find her on the ship, which was intended to be a subtle way of pointing out how he's accustomed to going to bed alongside her and waking with her gone (and probably already at work.)

She goes for round 2 when Trip calls her on her 'go away vibes'

Actually, she goes for round 2 when Trip asks if she wants them to stop, which is entirely in her character, I thought, as she did similar things during the show whenever she thought she was about to lose Trip because he was tired of their little game.

so where was the logic in running away in the first place and of all things, she's confused about enjoying it

It's exactly like she told him: she needed somewhere to meditate where she wasn't smelling him so she could hopefully get her mind right without being affected by sense memories - even with the life support totally functioning, Trip's scent is going to linger inside the T'Muna-Doth. T'Pol is being completely honest and forthright.

I mean, they've been sleeping under one blanket for almost a year and unless I'm reading too much between the lines, I think the reasoning has been going beyond mere warming up for quite a while.

Not sure that's really relevant in this case as this is the first time they've had sex. For that matter, it's the first time period for T'Pol since I established back on the Zeon farmstead that she'd never slept alongside a naked male before. She was overwhelmed (and there is certainly more in that regard than has been revealed at this point), retreated, and tried to collect herself. At no time was she trying to push him away or thanking him for explorations into human sexuality.

Here is my take on what transpired in that chapter. If we take into account that a). T'Pol has been taught that sex is merely a bodily function that does not provide any pleasure and b). despite the maturation of their relationship, TnT have not slept together until this point, then I think it's perfectly reasonable that she would be shocked when she finds it quite enjoyable. It makes sense to me that she would need to go clear her head and try to understand why it was so great if being a Vulcan, it's not supposed to be. It would be logical for her to question this new development.

And that is how it was constructed and intended to be perceived.

Seriously, the most angsty part for me was Trip still being hung up on the idea she would have developed this relationship with any ol' guy she was straded with. It's Trip who needs a little smack upside the head, not T'Pol.

Well, as I said above, I do think that's a believable thing for him to wonder about. Is it going to be a major element? No, probably not. At some point, T'Pol will likely realize what he's thinking and give him another metaphorical slap upside the head - as I stated in a previous post when discussing that thought, when viewed dispassionately, Trip is really the best person to be there with her. Archer would have tried to simply assume command even though he doesn't have the skills necessary to survive a situation like this and we've seen four years worth of examples (10 years, if the events of T-A-T-V are to be believed) where he totally ignores good advice, so it's probable he'd get them both killed pretty quickly. Apart from Reed, every other male character aboard ENT would be totally looking to her for guidance so she'd maintain the appropriate amount of emotional distance between them necessary to maintain her authority which precludes any connection from occurring; Malcolm is the only real wildcard, but his skillset is ostensibly similar to hers, so they might have an easier time surviving. In that case, though, I don't see them ever really connecting beyond their current status. Hence, Trip's concern is fundamentally flawed even if he doesn't realize it.

[Kotik]

I start to see where Rigil is coming from with the chapter, but I guess we'll still disagree on T'Pol's direction. After re-reading it a couple of times it starts making more sense and my initially harsh reaction makes me look a bit of a fool really. I've come to take a great level odf quality and a serious maturity of their relationship for granted with that particular story, which is why I was so put off by it as it contains one of the plots which I hated on the original show and I usually don't like stories that use it. Let me explain:

Contrary to what she's been told, jumping his bones was a pleasurable experience. What I don't understand is, why she should be confused by it. The major gripe I had with season 3 was the implication that T'Pol was confused by the emotions that Trip stirred up in her and it made her behave like an utter fool.
We all know that Vulcans suppress their emotions since they could overwhelm them. I'm buying that in a jiffy for emotions like pain, fear, rage, anger etc. as it threatens them to revert to their savage past of enormous ass-kickery, but Trip would more likely evoke emotions like affection, pleasure, love etc. How can someone be threatened by that ? That's why I'm sort of doubtful about all ther confusion thing.

The next thing is that this is the story in which T'Pol has learned to rely on Trip, she even copes with being dependend on him (night vision), so why does she do the overused-plot (tm) thing and runs off trying to meditate the hell out of something she doesn't understand in the first place. If anything I would have expected Rigil's T'Pol of all incarnations, to be mature enough to ask the one person, who really knows about emotions and what they mean. If she found it surprisingly pleasurable, wouldn't it make more sense for her to ask Trip if that is usual for mating humans?

But anyhow, we all have our ideas and imaginations, else all our stories would be the same.

[Rigil Kent]

Trip would more likely evoke emotions like affection, pleasure, love etc. How can someone be threatened by that ?

If it's overwhelming in intensity as all Vulcan emotions are supposed to be, I can certainly see why someone might feel threatened by it. Why do some people feel so threatened about commitment? Its the "totally losing one's self in another" that I see as being the focal point of the issue for T'Pol here - sure, she knew she had strong feelings for Trip, but suddenly, she just experienced a supernova of sensation that she was simply unprepared for. Hence, she panicked slightly. Once she calmed down a bit, she leaped at the chance to experience those sensations again.

why does she do the overused-plot (tm) thing and runs off trying to meditate the hell out of something she doesn't understand in the first place.

Because doing so is second nature to her. In times or moments of extreme stress, people revert to familiar things to get a handle on what's going on. That's all T'Pol did here. She freaked out at how intense the experience was, retreated to something familiar (meditation), and tried to recover her bearings.

If anything I would have expected Rigil's T'Pol of all incarnations, to be mature enough to ask the one person, who really knows about emotions and what they mean.

Human emotions and Vulcan emotions are different, however, and my version of T'Pol would recognize that. Sure, Trip might have a better handle on what some of those emotions might mean but how exactly does a Vulcan explain to a Human what they are feeling? Physical manifestations of the respective emotions could be different in this case, particularly since one has to acknowledge the whole Vulcan mating cycle in some fashion.

If she found it surprisingly pleasurable, wouldn't it make more sense for her to ask Trip if that is usual for mating humans?

Not when she's lived 65 or so years being told and taught and reminded that Vulcans do not experience pleasure, or if they do, they're deviant freaks. The one instance we've seen where she does encounter Vulcans who seem to experience it turned out exceedingly badly for her (e.g. Tolaris), so she's automatically going to fall back on old habits (meditate to figure things out.) Plus, she's also seen firsthand (from the show) that Trip isn't exactly ... forthcoming when it comes to discussions about sex. In fact, he gets embarrassed and maybe even a little flustered if she brings it up, so engaging him on the subject might lead to a miscommunication, something she's trying to avoid.

Trust me: I have a plan. (And, unlike nuBSG, I'm not just saying that when I don't have anything resembling a plan.)