"Divergent Paths" Discussion

[Rigil Kent]

Thanks. Little frustrated on my part though, 'cause I'm nearing the end of the stuff I have written and I'm finding it extremely difficult to talk my Muse into cooperating.

[Misplaced]

Fantastic addition. Get some chocolate and lure your Muse back, my friend. We need more!

[Alelou]

Maybe Trip and T'Pol are too happy right now for your muse, which tends to thrive on battle. Why don't you rustle up an intense painful triangle between Archer, Erika and Soval? Or something else bad-ass happening back on Enterprise? Preferably something that, when TnT return, is really going to explode.

It's just a thought, anyway.

It could also be that at this point in the game, your decision to fly without an outline just isn't doing it for you anymore. I don't do outlines myself, but sometimes when I hit this point I jump ahead and write an ending just to reassure myself that the story is still heading to a place I care about.

[BloodDragon]

Maybe Trip and T'Pol are too happy right now for your muse, which tends to thrive on battle. Why don't you rustle up an intense painful triangle between Archer, Erika and Soval? Or something else bad-ass happening back on Enterprise? Preferably something that, when TnT return, is really going to explode.

Surely something else bad-ass happening back on Enterprise.

[aadarshinah]

Maybe Trip and T'Pol are too happy right now for your muse, which tends to thrive on battle. Why don't you rustle up an intense painful triangle between Archer, Erika and Soval? Or something else bad-ass happening back on Enterprise? Preferably something that, when TnT return, is really going to explode.

Surely something else bad-ass happening back on Enterprise.

ditto. They are in the middle of a potentially-history-changing almost-war in the Expanse....

[Thot]

Well, a question I'd liked to be answered by Rigil would be what's the origin/backround of the MACO group on Enterprise.

Because he turned them more into a black ops unit than the "Tactical Assessment Group" we actually saw in the 3rd season (I'm aware of the picture Rigil draws of them in the 3rd season: Less acapable than a boy scout group - and he's probably right).

But still: From where do they get their experience to be such bad asses in Rigil's universe? What's their legitimation to exist at all?

I mean there are no conflict regions like Afghanistan, Somalia or terrorist groups like Al'Qaida left on Earth in 'Enterprise's' time. At least something else would contradict the social structure referred to in all the Enterprise's episodes (a united Earth, no war, no poverty, no hunger, no diseases).

Who is their employer and against whom could he use such a black ops unit?

The only explanation I can think of is that this MACO unit is the bad ass group of Section 31, who communicate the picture of the MACOs (or specially of this particular one) to the official world in a way as they appear in the aired episodes in season 3, but in reality they are the rapid developement force for some shadowy power like Section 31.

That could be quite a shock for some people on Enterprise, if they found out who they actually dealing with.

EDIT: The last two chapter are great and I'm getting nearly tired of repeating myself with all the praises I have to express to you concerning 'Divergent Path', Rigil.

[Rigil Kent]

Well, a question I'd liked to be answered by Rigil would be what's the origin/backround of the MACO group on Enterprise.

It's a valid question. To preface, I must admit something that I think pretty much everyone who has interacted with me in the past is already aware of: I have a much less "optimistic" view of the future than Trek espouses, mostly because the approach most Trek takes in regards to us Earthers frankly seems antithetical to how human nature actually functions. We humans are a mean, ugly, vicious sort, capable of mind-boggling insanity and cruelty. Sure, we're also capable of beauty and love and all that, but possessing a degree in history, I frankly find it incomprehensible that humanity is capable of "evolving" into the shiny, happy people that Trek wants us to believe (especially since there are dozens of examples of humans being utter jackholes or, for that matter, reverting to the before mentioned vicious sort when backed against the wall. Case in point, Trip in season 3.) So keep that in mind when I respond.

Because he turned them more into a black ops unit

Very much so.

(I'm aware of the picture Rigil draws of them in the 3rd season: Less acapable than a boy scout group - and he's probably right).

I'd say indisputably so, but I'm a former grunt so my opinion is heavily biased.

I mean there are no conflict regions like Afghanistan, Somalia or terrorist groups like Al'Qaida left on Earth in 'Enterprise's' time. At least something else would contradict the social structure referred to in all the Enterprise's episodes (a united Earth, no war, no poverty, no hunger, no diseases).

To which I immediately point you to Terra Prime. What are they but the equivalent of al'Qaeda, just transposed into the Trek setting? Just like the Islamofascists who make up the various terrorist organizations, TP is made up of a bunch of radical xenophobes who are hellbent on exterminating those who don't share their opinion. Barring Trip's re-wiring of the targeting system of that thing on Mars in Terra Prime, how is what they were doing there any different than the jackholes who crashed planes into the WTC? In both instances, zealots were abusing the technology of something intended to be useful to turn it into a weapon of mass destruction.

So to be honest, I don't buy the assessment that they actually had brought total peace on Earth by ENT's time period simply because I don't drink the Trek kool-aid when it comes to humans. I very much suspect there are isolated pockets of mad dog extremists who need to be put down for the benefit of the whole of society. Think of it as the logical extension of the "needs of the many."

Further, one needs only look at our modern culture and how blind a lot of us are to the true dangers out there in the world to see a correlation. We're part of the Western society and far too many of us are completely oblivious to the seething hatred some of the 3rd world people harbor toward us, no matter that in many instances they don't bother hiding it (mostly because a lot of us in the West simply insist that the danger is overblown and it would never come our way again ... right up until we're smacked in the face with their hatred, whether its in the form of commandeered planes, or constant rocket barrages as Israel faces on a daily basis, or instances as are leaking out with that whole EU airport thing right now. So yeah, Jon and Trip might have insisted that Earth was a happy, shiny community without war and hatred (whoops. Terra Prime ruins that) or disease (whoops. Henry Archer ruins that), but it sounds too much like propaganda for me to believe.

Plus, I'm very much a misanthrope.

Who is their employer

The MACOs. Although I thought it was pretty clear in that last Reed chapter that Hayes has at least tentative ties to Section 31.

and against whom could he use such a black ops unit?

The same sorts of types you'd send SEAL Team Six or Delta Force or a CIA assassination team against. Would-be tyrants or terrorists who don't care how many people they kill to accomplish their mad goals.

The only explanation I can think of is that this MACO unit is the bad ass group of Section 31, who communicate the image like they appear in the actual aired episodes in season 3, but in reality they are the rapid developement force for some shadowy power like Section 31.

An equally valid explanation, even if I don't agree with you that there isn't a precedence for their existence already.

Providing I can convince my Muse to actually cooperate, I do plan to go into a bit more detail into this team, especially as the actual extent of their skills and abilities becomes more clear to the non-Malcolm Reed crewmembers...

[Thot]

It's a valid question. To preface, I must admit something that I think pretty much everyone who has interacted with me in the past is already aware of: I have a much less "optimistic" view of the future than Trek espouses, mostly because the approach most Trek takes in regards to us Earthers frankly seems antithetical to how human nature actually functions. We humans are a mean, ugly, vicious sort, capable of mind-boggling insanity and cruelty. Sure, we're also capable of beauty and love and all that, but possessing a degree in history, I frankly find it incomprehensible that humanity is capable of "evolving" into the shiny, happy people that Trek wants us to believe (especially since there are dozens of examples of humans being utter jackholes or, for that matter, reverting to the before mentioned vicious sort when backed against the wall. Case in point, Trip in season 3.) So keep that in mind when I respond.

Plus, I'm very much a misanthrope.

To be honest: I never had the impression in your writing that you are a overly pessimistic person or a misanthrophe. Perhaps the mixture of your "less optimistic view" and the challenge of dealing with Trip/T'Pol turns it into a more differentiated perspective about black, white and much of grey than you actually claim for yourself?

Or perhaps you are more focused on telling the story instead of broadcasting your own view of the world? (Personally, a very admirable trait from my point of view)

We could start to discuss realism, human nature and the whole stuff, but that's a bit beside the point. I simply have to acknowledge the different setting you are referring to.

I mean there are no conflict regions like Afghanistan, Somalia or terrorist groups like Al'Qaida left on Earth in 'Enterprise's' time. At least something else would contradict the social structure referred to in all the Enterprise's episodes (a united Earth, no war, no poverty, no hunger, no diseases).

So to be honest, I don't buy the assessment that they actually had brought total peace on Earth by ENT's time period simply because I don't drink the Trek kool-aid when it comes to humans. I very much suspect there are isolated pockets of mad dog extremists who need to be put down for the benefit of the whole of society.

Okay. The idea that during ENT's time they are simply closer to "our" time than TOS or even Next Gen is a good point.
But another point you have to consider is the bigger scale/emigration option: Perhaps "on Earth" it's pretty much the way they are claiming, but other places like Mars, Vega Colony and so on are a different story. It's quite likely that the conflict lines switched away from "on Earth" to "between Earth and somebody else".

Therefore, you could fit the MACO unit on Enterprise into the setting more easily by claiming them as the bad ass unit of United Earth Goverment on Mars/Vega Colony or something else. In addition, it would be a sensable reason why they should have some idea about fighting in alien enivronments (with EV suits, in zero-gravity and so on)

Concerning the Terra Prime equals al'Quaida theory: Isn't it interesting that they became a concern AFTER the Xindi attack?
Personally, I'm sometimes surprised how little people take into consideration what a changing moment this event for the society on Earth this must have been. I mean, seven million dead - that's more people than in all the fighting of World War I! In addition, compare the space of time: in a few minutes (the Xindi attack) and on the other hand four years (WWI).

Therefore, you could claim that before the attack Earth pretty much was an elysium, but after the attack it's about to turn over into a different "setting". Something like 'the bubble has burst'.

Further, one needs only look at our modern culture and how blind a lot of us are to the true dangers out there in the world to see a correlation. We're part of the Western society and far too many of us are completely oblivious to the seething hatred some of the 3rd world people harbor toward us, no matter that in many instances they don't bother hiding it (mostly because a lot of us in the West simply insist that the danger is overblown and it would never come our way again ... right up until we're smacked in the face with their hatred, whether its in the form of commandeered planes, or constant rocket barrages as Israel faces on a daily basis, or instances as are leaking out with that whole EU airport thing right now. So yeah, Jon and Trip might have insisted that Earth was a happy, shiny community without war and hatred (whoops. Terra Prime ruins that) or disease (whoops. Henry Archer ruins that), but it sounds too much like propaganda for me to believe.

Okay some comments:
I) If people today in the western world are already so blind about the dangers which stir on their own planet, how can you blame the naivity of the Enterprise crew about deep space exploration? (I'm aware of most likely getting some 'smart ass-comments for this.)
II) Concerning the happy, shiny community:

1. All these comments about Earth were before the Xindi attack. Therefore the 'without war' aspect doesn't fit anymore.
2. In addition, I find it quite obvious that these remarks are meant as a introperspective view on merely Earth and not as a all of mankind view.
3. When did they say 'without hatred'?
4. The 'without disease' comment from Trip is due to the christian terminology in earlier centuries: They used the word 'disease' in many places where today you should use the word plague (*Thanks to the Jacob bible*). Therefore, they mean something more along the line of: No Malaria, AIDS and so on. That they don't claim that humans are ever sick is self-evident.

Providing I can convince my Muse to actually cooperate, I do plan to go into a bit more detail into this team, especially as the actual extent of their skills and abilities becomes more clear to the non-Malcolm Reed crewmembers...

I would appreciate if you give the MACO some kind of "weak spot" in the area of battle/fighting we actually witness in the story. Otherwise one has to face the question: If they are so good and the Enterprise are such amatures in security, why weren't they posted on Enterprise in the first place?
An idea would be to let the MACo face fighting in zero gravity and let them be surprised about the new environment. *Just a wish*

Is there a way to be of any help in the muse area? Perhaps some ideas bounced out for some inspiration?

[aadarshinah]

*shrugs* My only reply to all of the above is that while most the world may be safe, and peaceful, and healthy, and war free, there's inevitably going to be a small portion of the Federation (or pre-Federation Earth) that's not. And the existence of these problems will inevitably be marginallized, making it appear as everything's happy go lucky, even if it's not.

[Rigil Kent]

To be honest: I never had the impression in your writing that you are a overly pessimistic person or a misanthrophe.

You'd be surprised, I think.

Or perhaps you are more focused on telling the story instead of broadcasting your own view of the world? (Personally, a very admirable trait from my point of view)

That is something I very much try to do. Nothing yanks me out of a story more than when a character starts spouting religious or political or ethical dogma that is pretty obviously the author's personal beliefs and makes no sense coming from that character's mouth. If, for example, you have a generally conservative character (as established by canon) start making politically liberal points (or vice versa), I tend to scratch my head and/or stop reading entirely. So yeah, I make a concentrated effort to avoid that unless it is appropriate for the character in question.

Perhaps "on Earth" it's pretty much the way they are claiming, but other places like Mars, Vega Colony and so on are a different story. It's quite likely that the conflict lines switched away from "on Earth" to "between Earth and somebody else".

Therefore, you could fit the MACO unit on Enterprise into the setting more easily by claiming them as the bad ass unit of United Earth Goverment on Mars/Vega Colony or something else. In addition, it would be a sensable reason why they should have some idea about fighting in alien enivronments (with EV suits, in zero-gravity and so on)

That's actually kind of close to what I had envisioned, with the MACOs used on anti-pirate ops, or to quell unrest on colony worlds and so on. But I don't see Earth as being totally and completely peaceful simply because it doesn't track with how I view humanity.

Concerning the Terra Prime equals al'Quaida theory: Isn't it interesting that they became a concern AFTER the Xindi attack?

To which I have to point out we have no actual proof that they weren't a threat prior to the Xindi attack since they rarely touched on things back on Earth. I see them as an ongoing problem, albeit one that wasn't as pronounced until the attack where their numbers swelled due to angry and/or scared meatbags.

Personally, I'm sometimes surprised how little people take into consideration what a changing moment this event for the society on Earth this must have been. I mean, seven million dead - that's more people than in all the fighting of World War I! In addition, compare the space of time: in a few minutes (the Xindi attack) and on the other hand four years (WWI).

It is an issue that the show kind of glossed over. Guess all those millions were just red shirts, eh?

I) If people today in the western world are already so blind about the dangers which stir on their own planet, how can you blame the naivity of the Enterprise crew about deep space exploration? (I'm aware of most likely getting some 'smart ass-comments for this.)

I wasn't excusing it, merely explaining it. I also think the people in the western world today are pretty damned stupid for wanting to bury their heads in the sand and hope for the best when it comes to dealing with the Islamofascists who are such a problem.

All these comments about Earth were before the Xindi attack.

Yeah, and I was simply pointing out that I don't entirely believe them. They were arguing with T'Pol, who had an admittedly low opinion of humanity at the time, so of course they're going to pretend everything is happy and shiny.

When did they say 'without hatred'?

They didn't. I was exaggerating a bit since most people (inexplicably) tie hatred and war together.

The 'without disease' comment from Trip is due to the christian terminology in earlier centuries: They used the word 'disease' in many places where today you should use the word plague (*Thanks to the Jacob bible*). Therefore, they mean something more along the line of: No Malaria, AIDS and so on. That they don't claim that humans are ever sick is self-evident.

You're making an assumption there regarding his meaning. Granted, I don't disagree with you that that was likely his intended meaning, but taken at face value - which you have to do when talking to a more literal Vulcan - he was stating that disease had been stamped out when it very clearly was not (since Henry Archer died of a disease, not a plague.) Thus, he was exaggerating for the purpose of his argument (like I did above), which further tracks with my belief that the "war is gone" argument could also be exaggeration.

I would appreciate if you give the MACO some kind of "weak spot" in the area of battle/fighting we actually witness in the story. Otherwise one has to face the question: If they are so good and the Enterprise are such amatures in security, why weren't they posted on Enterprise in the first place?

Because Starfleet is stupid. And most MACOs aren't going as effective as this team is because most MACOs aren't a black ops unit. It'd be like comparing the skillsets of a regular Army infantryman or Marine rifleman with that of a Delta Force operator or a Navy SEAL.

But yeah, they are going to have some difficulties as time goes by.

An idea would be to let the MACo face fighting in zero gravity and let them be surprised about the new environment.

More likely it would center around alien environments since it would be kind of dumb for them to not be trained in zero-gee ops.

Is there a way to be of any help in the muse area? Perhaps some ideas bounced out for some inspiration?

Not really. Mostly, right now, it's time and motivation.

[Navigator]

And now, another mystery, who put the other satellites in orbit? Another one of Rigil's twists I didn't see coming. Good chapter!

[Reanok]

Another great chapter that twists with the satellites was a twist i didn't expect.Nice to see Trip& T'Pol working as a team to the ship in orbit and retriving the satellite shows how dangerous a manuvering to catch it.

[Navigator]

Rigil has Chapter 71 up. It's a really good mood setting chapter. You can almost smell the storm (metaphorically, that is) that's coming.

[Kotik]

*runs* to read it

[Navigator]

Not to steal Rigil's thunder, but 72 is up on his website. One hint: Body Armor is your friend.