Captain Tucker or Captain T'Pol?

[panyasan]

Lets say you are XO on the Enterprise. Designated as such. You have the Rank, etc. then a tellerite Officer is brought on board and soomeone says he outranks you. he is now XO. You would scream like Hell. claiming that the Tellerite doesn't know straight up abut Starfleet or its workings, regs, etc.You would be right. That is trip's position. He is far more qualified than T'Pol to be XO . she has spent her entire career in the vulcan military a different animal altogether.

SB

And yet, he doesn't protest at all! There is no sign at all that during T'Pol serving on Enterprise any one protested against her role - not even Trip who had every right to be, not a single crew member is protesting as T'Pol takes over as captain when Archer is away. When T'Pol and Archer are both on surface, Trip is the commanding officer. So the chain of command is clear: Archer - T'Pol - Trip.

Now I agree with you that's a little odd that a Vulcan would be taking over command when Archer isn't present (Trip would be the more obvious choice), but everybody is treating her being acting captain as a totally normal thing.

So my guess is everybody agreed with the chain of command being Archer - T'Pol - Trip and that in a time not everybody including Archer liked Vulcans.

I don't understand why this is even an issue, because it isn't an issue on the show. You may think that T'Pol isn't a likable person, or that Vulcans shouldn't be in command of a Human ship or that females shouldn't be in command. But that doesn't change the fact T'Pol is the second in command.

But I stop now, because no matter what arguments is brought to the table for T'Pol being a XO, you probably wouldn't agree on this subject.

[Cogito]

T'Pol's rank was in the VHC and had no bearing on the Starfleet chain of command. she was never in that chain of command. fact is, show me the episode where T'Pol was delegated as XO. Not until the third season when archer threatened to remove her as XO but she was never named XO in any episode.

Originally, Archer described T'Pol as the Science Officer, implying that she was serving as a member of the crew and not merely an observer or liaison. But later Trip said "I don't remember anyone telling me you were a member of Starfleet" and by questioning her right to assume command he implied that she wasn't in the chain of command at that time, or at least that her place in the chain of command was ambiguous. And yet by Vox Sola (series 1 episode 21) T'Pol referred to herself as First Officer, and she was referred to as First Officer numerous times subsequently. I don't see how she could be appointed as First Officer without being in the chain of command.

I think it's reasonable to suppose that in the haste to launch the ship ahead of schedule the organisational formalities were overlooked, and then this was rectified.

[Asso]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2490

[Silverbullet]

I don't remember T'Pol referring to herself as XO, ever.

In NO episode was she designated FO, XO or whatever. Only as a Science Officer.

Broken Bow had so many holes in it. When t'Pol came on board she said she would only be on the ship for a few days as LIason and Observer. No mention was made of her being anything else.

I believe the major problem was that Bragga, et al wanted to fit T'Pol in Spocks place forgetting that Spock was a federation Officer and had a right to be both Science Officer and FO. t'Pol did not. didn't stop Bragga though.

You say there were no protests. How do you know? There may have been lots of protests that Archer quelled. Trip may have also gone around telling the crew to wait and it would be taken care of. Who knows.

Fact remains that t'Pol was on board for longer than the original eight days she said she would be when she first came in to Archers ready room.

SB

[putaro]

I love Google. I don't remember things any more myself .

There's a fair number of times when T'Pol is referred to as First Officer either by Archer, herself or the crew. I don't think she's ever referred to as "Executive Officer" but isn't that usually just another way of saying "First Officer"?

I have to say that it's simply an established fact that in the series, T'Pol was the First Officer of Enterprise. Whether or not that was a good idea, whether or not the crew was disgruntled about it, even whether or not it actually matched Starfleet regulations at the time are open to discussion and certainly areas that would seem to be interesting areas to write about.

(Thanks to Google & Chrissie's transcripts. Google Fu: site:chakoteya.net/Enterprise "first officer"]

T'POL: As First Officer it's my duty to supervise you.

T'POL: Lieutenant, I need your
REED: Clearance code.
T'POL: I beg your pardon?
REED: What is your clearance code? The Armoury is a restricted area.
T'POL: Even to the First Officer?
REED: How do I know you are the First Officer? We've encountered species that can alter their appearance. They could masquerade as any one of us. I've issued codes to all senior officers to reveal if the ship's been infiltrated by impostors.

T'POL: Perhaps we should contact Starfleet, and discuss this with Admiral Forrest.
ARCHER: You're relieved as First Officer. Major, escort T'Pol back to the ship and confine her to her quarters.

T'POL: Commander, perhaps
SHRAN: I've heard enough from you! Vulcans are expert liars. Perhaps your people are behind this.
ARCHER: You're speaking to my First Officer.

RAJIIN: Are they all from Earth?
ARCHER: Nearly all. You've met Doctor Phlox, he's from Denobula. My first officer's a Vulcan.

ARCHER: My number one priority here is the health of my first officer. If these doctors have data that can help her, I plan to get it.

T'POL: First Officer's log, Supplemental. We've evacuated the Away Team and all personnel from the station. The Captain shows no sign of infection. He's recovering in Sickbay.

ARCHER: My First Officer, where is she? What have you done with her?

TUCKER: We've been over this. Our Captain and First Officer are down there.

ARCHER: This is my First Officer, T'Pol. She's from a planet called Vulcan.

[panyasan]

Fact remains that t'Pol was on board for longer than the original eight days she said she would be when she first came in to Archers ready room.

She was asked by Starfleet and Archer at the the end of Broken Bow to come aboard (for a longer period).

As for the protests, there may have been, but Trip and Archer both seemed to have accepted her position after a few episodes in season one. So the theory that the chain of command was establish later on, makes sense. Afterwards, T'Pol is referring to her self as first officer.

As for "we don't see her being sworn in as XO" - we don't see Archer being assigned as captain or Trip as Chief Engineering and third in command and yet we all believe Archer is the captain and Trip the Chief Engineering.

By the way, I can see people protesting against Archer being appointed captain. He was a test pilot - IMHO not the first choice for a command position.

As for the rest I quote Putaro's excellent post:

I love Google. I don't remember things any more myself .

There's a fair number of times when T'Pol is referred to as First Officer either by Archer, herself or the crew. I don't think she's ever referred to as "Executive Officer" but isn't that usually just another way of saying "First Officer"?

I have to say that it's simply an established fact that in the series, T'Pol was the First Officer of Enterprise. Whether or not that was a good idea, whether or not the crew was disgruntled about it, even whether or not it actually matched Starfleet regulations at the time are open to discussion and certainly areas that would seem to be interesting areas to write about.

(Thanks to Google & Chrissie's transcripts. Google Fu: site:chakoteya.net/Enterprise "first officer"]

T'POL: As First Officer it's my duty to supervise you.

T'POL: Lieutenant, I need your
REED: Clearance code.
T'POL: I beg your pardon?
REED: What is your clearance code? The Armoury is a restricted area.
T'POL: Even to the First Officer?
REED: How do I know you are the First Officer? We've encountered species that can alter their appearance. They could masquerade as any one of us. I've issued codes to all senior officers to reveal if the ship's been infiltrated by impostors.

T'POL: Perhaps we should contact Starfleet, and discuss this with Admiral Forrest.
ARCHER: You're relieved as First Officer. Major, escort T'Pol back to the ship and confine her to her quarters.

T'POL: Commander, perhaps
SHRAN: I've heard enough from you! Vulcans are expert liars. Perhaps your people are behind this.
ARCHER: You're speaking to my First Officer.

RAJIIN: Are they all from Earth?
ARCHER: Nearly all. You've met Doctor Phlox, he's from Denobula. My first officer's a Vulcan.

ARCHER: My number one priority here is the health of my first officer. If these doctors have data that can help her, I plan to get it.

T'POL: First Officer's log, Supplemental. We've evacuated the Away Team and all personnel from the station. The Captain shows no sign of infection. He's recovering in Sickbay.

ARCHER: My First Officer, where is she? What have you done with her?

TUCKER: We've been over this. Our Captain and First Officer are down there.

ARCHER: This is my First Officer, T'Pol. She's from a planet called Vulcan.

[Silverbullet]

T'Pol being FO was foisted off on us by Bragga and Berman. there was NO logical reason for her to be named FO. Enterprise was a Starfleet Starship officered and crewed by Humans.

since T'Pol was known to be a brilliant Scientist it would be logical for her to be assigned to the Science Section. As it was she probably pushed aside a human who had been assigned to head the Science section.

Otherwise there is absolutely no logic in having a Vulcan as FO of a human ship.

Roddenbury was careful in TOS and TNG to stress that enterprise was a Federation ship. In TNG it was noted that there were all vulcan federation ships as there were all andorian, etc. also all Human. There were a few mixed crew ships too.

Spock who was half vulcan and half human was constantly referred to as Vulcan.He was not he was half and half.

Anyway, iin ToS and TNG Enterprise sailed under the flag of the Federated Planets. That was Roddebury.

SB

[Kotik]

Seriously SB, I have no idea why you get so worked up about it? Ever heard of officer exchange programs? Happened routinely in my service time (early 90s) that you'd find German officers in the french army or vice versa.

T'Pol had all it took to be come XO: She was in the chain of command (science officer), she had command experience (Tomed mission) and she had seniority - hell she had more seniority than Archer.

[Cogito]

By the way, I can see people protesting against Archer being appointed captain. He was a test pilot - IMHO not the first choice for a command position.

Nepotism is the only explanation I can imagine.

He struck me as completely out of his depth and unsuitable for that position. He would have fitted in great as the pilot - he had all of the arrogant ego that we would have expected from somebody in that role, unlike wallflower Travis - but he had no business being in command of anything bigger than a shuttlepod.

I can't remember who wrote this, but I remember Archer thinking this about T'Pol:

She was his equal in every respect except experience, in which she greatly outstripped him.

Quite so. I don't suppose that would have fitted the B&B message at all, having the human hero as the alien's sidekick instead of the other way around, but it would have been a much more logical solution.

As I'm sure T'Pol must have thought to herself on more than one occasion.

[putaro]

T'Pol being FO was foisted off on us by Bragga and Berman.

Well, yes.

There was NO logical reason for her to be named FO. Enterprise was a Starfleet Starship officered and crewed by Humans.

Really? I think they worked pretty hard to show that Humans were basically being treated as a client race by the Vulcans. We've got the Vulcans essentially having a veto over them sending out a deep space mission. Soval breezes in and out of Starfleet headquarters whenever he feels like it.

Given that, T'Pol was obviously placed in the FO position because of Vulcan pressure on Starfleet. That puts her in the chain of command with the possibility of relieving Archer and taking control at any time.

So, yah, it was contrived by BnB but I think they did put a little bit of work into having it make sense. Now, if only the "first deep space mission" thing had jived with the "boomers" being all over the quadrant.

[Kotik]

By the way, I can see people protesting against Archer being appointed captain. He was a test pilot - IMHO not the first choice for a command position.

Nepotism is the only explanation I can imagine.

He struck me as completely out of his depth and unsuitable for that position. He would have fitted in great as the pilot - he had all of the arrogant ego that we would have expected from somebody in that role, unlike wallflower Travis - but he had no business being in command of anything bigger than a shuttlepod.

You haven't served in the forces, have you
Test pilots in the airforce are VERY high ranking officers - we're talking Colonels here. The three test pilots in the NX beta program were Archer, A.G. and Duval. So it wasn't that the test pilots were made Captains, it was the other way 'round

[Silverbullet]

T'Pol's experience. she said she served on two (2) Vulcan ships neither one in a command position. One as an assistant security Officer and the other as a liason of some sort. so much for experience in command. She had been in the intelligence section and transferred out to the Science Directorate. Neither one in a command position.

She never commanded a ship or was FO on a Vulcan or any other ship. she was completely inexperienced.

While the vulcans wanted Earth to be a client planet Earth still went ahead with the lauch of Enterprise despite the vulcans. NO way would starfleet cave in to making T'Pol Fo oncey had told the vulcans to stuff it.

Archer had no bsiness as Captain robinson was the beter choice.

Since T'Pol had been in the Science directorate it would be logical to put her in to the Science section if she was asked to remain on board but not as FO. Trip had far more command experience commanding humans than t'Pol would ever have.



I am not trying to be argumentive here. My logic says that T'Pol had no business as FO and there would be no logic in designating her as FO. Hell the crew would be up in arms because a vulcan was put into that position.

I guess I am trying to retain a little stability in my life.

I received some very unsettling news last week. I probbably have Cancer. Not the hapiest news I have ever received.

I won't know for certain until some more tests are concluded but all signs says the chances are that I do have it than I don't.

SB

[putaro]

I guess I am trying to retain a little stability in my life.

I received some very unsettling news last week. I probbably have Cancer. Not the hapiest news I have ever received.

I won't know for certain until some more tests are concluded but all signs says the chances are that I do have it than I don't.

That is unsettling news. Seriously, I'm hoping you don't have cancer.

Archer had no bsiness as Captain robinson was the beter choice.

Robinson seemed like a jerk as well. Archer, as written, was certainly a jerk an awful lot of the time. My own fondness for Archer is strictly based on Bakula being a likable guy - Archer's actions most of the time were not good.

I am not trying to be argumentive here. My logic says that T'Pol had no business as FO and there would be no logic in designating her as FO. Hell the crew would be up in arms because a vulcan was put into that position.

Well, your logic isn't wrong. But, them's the lemons we have. You can rationalize it and move on or fuss about it. There's a whole mess of missing scenes with the crew dissing T'Pol that are begging to be written. I don't own many Star Trek books, but one I do have is "How Much For Just The Planet" by John Ford. He has a couple of crewmen just ripping on Spock at one point. It's a pretty funny scene.

[Distracted]

So sorry to hear that, SB. I can see how that would be stressful. I hope you get hopeful news soon. I'll be praying for you.

[Kotik]

Sb, I wouldn't go into panic mode yet. My mother was diagnosed with cancer three times over the last 2 years and three times the doctors got back to her a month or two later saying: "oops, my mistake".

I really wonder about the wisdom of telling a patient "You might have cancer, but we aren't sure until we have all the tests"