The pon farr thread

[Asso]

Writing about Trip and T'Pol is healing. It's sweet. I don't search for more angst. The show is enough. That's the reason because of which I plunged myself in TriaxianSilk. If I have to suffer here too, I'm not sure what I have to do.

[panyasan]

We're debating it because I asked, because I want to know. Some of us may not like it but it's there, canonically established as a part of Vulcan sexuality. And since it's there, I'm going to use it. However, I contend that it doesn't have to be the violent, awful, debasing thing that a lot of people assume it is; the truth is, we have very little information about it, and we've only canonically seen examples of it when it's gone wrong for one reason or another. So I'm selfishly using this thread to focus-group some ideas on what it is under normal circumstances. Once I have a clear picture in my mind of what's "normal" for the "average" Vulcan couple, then I can further explore what it has potential to be in the context of a loving, secure bond between a Vulcan and a Human.

I will applaud you if you write about pon farr in a normal way. Like I tried to establish in my first comment on this thread, my opinion is that pon farr mostly (99,99%) takes places in a loving, caring relationship, where the couple are both triggered and helping each other. To avoid that pon farr becomes something dreadfull, arranged marriages and other marriage rituals/rules were established.
When someone is single/without mate etc. there are other ways to deal with pon farr, then forcing some one to have sex.
I still think forcing some one to have sex is wrong - and this counts for all species, Humans and Vulcan alike.

[Alelou]

Writing about Trip and T'Pol is healing. It's sweet. I don't search for more angst. The show is enough. That's the reason because of which I plunged myself in TriaxianSilk. If I have to suffer here too, I'm not sure what I have to do.

Asso, you write angst too. Don't act so innocent!

If I want to go see cute happy couples, I'll go watch ... I don't know, because where's the story in a cute, happy couple?? You have to have some conflict or you don't really have a plot. Somebody has to be having conflict. Granted, on the show it's usually with aliens first, each other second.

[Asso]

Touché!
There's no way out, for me.

[Aquarius]

^ Besides, characters without problems are simply not interesting. That doesn't mean a story has to be an angst-fest, but if the obstacles the characters face are dull, too simplistic, or non-existent, then you tend to lose or at least bore your reader. You learn that in any book or class on how to write fiction.

Now, this is not to say that pon farr doesn't have the potential to be used in an over-simplistic way; I suspect it has, many times over, which is where the trite plot device rears its ugly head. But in the hands of a capable, imaginative writer, I think it also has the potential to be a goldmine for good drama.

I've never made the claim that the Vulcan males only do it only every seven years.

I didn't mean to imply you did. Someone else earlier in the thread was arguing that it was only once. I was just using your quote to point out the loophole.

panyasan--Thank you.

It seems that the female pon farr is pretty much a blank slate slate. I see no evidence in canon, nor has anyone presented any here, that says a female couldn't be set off without another Vulcan(oid) male. I think equally compelling cases could be made for T'Pol not having one as long as she stays with Trip as well as for her having one any way. It depends on how you set up your own universe. For mine...well, it's more interesting to me if she does have one. T'Pol, after all, is not human, so for their relationship to remain interesting to a reader, I'd think there needs to be a certain amount of contrast between the characters, differences for them to surmount. Their relationship will be one of compromise--well, isn't every relationship, reallly?--which, for me, doesn't translate into humanizing T'Pol, as I've seen in some fics; Trip is also going to have to "Vulcanize" to a point, deal with her issues on her terms sometimes, and this can be done without losing his human perspective. I think pon farr could be a wonderful opportunity to do that, especially when writing about the first one they experience. Trip is likely to feel all kinds of anticipation about it, maybe even suffer from a bit of misinformation even despite T'Pol's best attempts to assure him otherwise, etc.

[Escriba]

I will applaud you if you write about pon farr in a normal way. Like I tried to establish in my first comment on this thread, my opinion is that pon farr mostly (99,99%) takes places in a loving, caring relationship, where the couple are both triggered and helping each other. To avoid that pon farr becomes something dreadfull, arranged marriages and other marriage rituals/rules were established.
When someone is single/without mate etc. there are other ways to deal with pon farr, then forcing some one to have sex.
I still think forcing some one to have sex is wrong - and this counts for all species, Humans and Vulcan alike.

I'm a bit torn here. I mean, I love panyasan's take on the Vulcan couples and I like how you write Trip and T'Pol, darling But, on the other side, I don't think that's really what happens with Vulcans. I see Vulcans as a mixture between Romans and Japanese people, and from that point of view, Vulcans couples don't have to be loving or caring at all. Or, to be precise, they don't need to have our concept of love. Yes, it's better if you get on well with your wife or husband, but it's not really that important, since it's just an agreement (remember, Vulcans don't even have something like a "honeymoon".) I'm sure that agreements between families count more than feelings and this is logical, since "love" as we understand it, is surely avoided and rejected by Vulcans. Love is a very powerful and very irrational feeling, it is THE feeling par excellence. A people so proud of control should despise it. Romans did it and they were Humans, so imagine some species that doesn't have our phisiology.

Yes, Asso, you can attack me with some poetry now

It seems that the female pon farr is pretty much a blank slate slate. I see no evidence in canon, nor has anyone presented any here, that says a female couldn't be set off without another Vulcan(oid) male. I think equally compelling cases could be made for T'Pol not having one as long as she stays with Trip as well as for her having one any way.

Mmmm... Vulcan society is very male-centric (it's their pon-farr the only one that seems to count, they can claim the kal-if-fee and they're the only ones that can cancel an engagment or ask for the divorce.) Maybe that means that Vulcan women had a very different sexuality, one less restricted and biologically managed, which has to be "controlled" somehow?

If we use Earth zoology as an example, the mating time could turn males in more violent, but not females. Females are just sexier than ever

[Alelou]

Mmmm... Vulcan society is very male-centric (it's their pon-farr the only one that seems to count, they can claim the kal-if-fee and they're the only ones that can cancel an engagment or ask for the divorce.) Maybe that means that Vulcan women had a very different sexuality, one less restricted and biologically managed, which has to be "controlled" somehow?

Very intriguing idea. Yet women do hold political and religious power, so it's more that Vulcan society is male-centric in all things sexual?

It would be kind of funny if Surak and all that logic was really just a nonviolent way the guy came up with to try to keep horny Vulcan women from running amuck.

Ooh, imagine being the Vulcan feminist who tried to make that argument.

[Alelou]

Except, no, it's the women who claim kal-i-fee -- it was T'Pring who did that, I'm pretty sure. I'm not sure if men also have that right.

[Escriba]

Ah, yes, you're right, you're right... It was too good to be true *sigh*

[Aquarius]

^^^^But that's assuming that violence has to be involved. The only violence we've really witnessed is when the Fever is allowed to build and build and build to a point of desperation and frustration because survival is now being threatened, or when a challenge was issued because the female in question didn't like who her family picked for her. And again, there is that line between what pon farr is biologically, versus the rituals a culture has built around it.

One of the things I'm wondering about T'Pring is, since she didn't seem to show any signs of the Blood Fever, did that maybe have less to do with her being female, and more to do with the fact that she had a stronger emotional attachment to Stonn that was somehow able to circumvent her betrothal bond with Spock?

[Aquarius]

Except, no, it's the women who claim kal-i-fee -- it was T'Pring who did that, I'm pretty sure. I'm not sure if men also have that right.

But then, it was Koss who released T'Pol from their marriage. Not the other way around. So I don't think they would declare a kal-i-fee and have a chick-fight. I'm sort of left with the impression that it's the men who have the power to end it the rest of the time, but the kal-i-fee is the chance the woman has to get out of it--assuming, of course, that her mate doesn't end up winning, any way. Then she's screwed.

ETA: Plus, it was Spock who released T'Pring when it was over any way. I mean, at that point it was already a formality considering she point blank told him that she'd be carrying on with Stonn after he was gone any way, but he could've forced her to stay married to him.

[panyasan]

I'm a bit torn here. I mean, I love panyasan's take on the Vulcan couples and I like how you write Trip and T'Pol, darling But, on the other side, I don't think that's really what happens with Vulcans. I see Vulcans as a mixture between Romans and Japanese people, and from that point of view, Vulcans couples don't have to be loving or caring at all. Or, to be precise, they don't need to have our concept of love. Yes, it's better if you get on well with your wife or husband, but it's not really that important, since it's just an agreement (remember, Vulcans don't even have something like a "honeymoon".) I'm sure that agreements between families count more than feelings and this is logical, since "love" as we understand it, is surely avoided and rejected by Vulcans. Love is a very powerful and very irrational feeling, it is THE feeling par excellence. A people so proud of control should despise it. Romans did it and they were Humans, so imagine some species that doesn't have our phisiology.

Yes, I know when I wrote my comment my portray of Vulcan couples was a bit idealistic. I think you have all kind of relationships in Vulcan society, one maybe more centraled around love, the other around raising kids together or just a agreement. T'Pol's mother told Trip she grew to love her husband. I like to think that Trip and T'Pol are two very different - and stil not so different - people with their own faults trying to work out their relationship, loving each other, but sometimes struggling to understand each other and live together.
About Japan. I can't resist. When I lived in Japan, some people seemed to have more businesslike marriage (mostly the elderly persons), but I have also met people like our best Japanese friends who had a very good relationship as far as I could tell.
BTW, 25-plus single women in Japan are seen as odd, you can't put them in the group Young or Married. Make me wonder what Vulcans thought about T'Pol unmarried state before Home.

[Escriba]

About Japan. I can't resist. When I lived in Japan, some people seemed to have more businesslike marriage (mostly the elderly persons), but I have also met people like our best Japanese friends who had a very good relationship as far as I could tell.
BTW, 25-plus single women in Japan are seen as odd, you can't put them in the group Young or Married. Make me wonder what Vulcans thought about T'Pol unmarried state before Home.

Hey, don't worry! You're the expert here But I wasn't using the Japanese analogy for the marriage, I use it for the somehow hierarchical society and the "don't touch" policy

And yes, T'Les does say she grew to love her husband, but what I don't know is what Vulcans understand for love, because I don't think it's the lovey-dovey-can't-control-yourself thing.

But then, it was Koss who released T'Pol from their marriage. Not the other way around. So I don't think they would declare a kal-i-fee and have a chick-fight. I'm sort of left with the impression that it's the men who have the power to end it the rest of the time, but the kal-i-fee is the chance the woman has to get out of it--assuming, of course, that her mate doesn't end up winning, any way. Then she's screwed.

True, good point. Besides it's even worse than that, because T'Pol didn't declare the kal-if-fee for fear to lose Trip. So the situation for Vulcan women has to be a little shitty: if they want to get rid of their actual mate they have to chose another stronger (so better not to fall in love somebody weak.)

[Aquarius]

Now here's what I'm wondering: is she only eligible to declare the kal-i-fee when betrothal is about to become marriage? Or does she get a shot at it every 7 years?

[Escriba]

I think that because pon-farr and marriage seems separated in modern Vulcan society, it could be declared when the ceremony is going to perform. Or even sooner. Anytime. Engagement is long and leads to marriage automatically, if nothing prevents it. I suppose men can break it anytime saying it so and women can break it through kal-if-fee.