Imagine: ENT entering its final season

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Re: Imagine: ENT entering its final season

Postby Elessar » Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:47 am

Rigil Kent wrote:The argument also doesn't hold up when you look at the numbers. Modern Trek began its ratings decline with DS9, so arguing that introducing more characters instead of focusing on the ones you have doesn't track.

The problem is plain and simple: exceedingly poor writing in the first two (or three, depending upon your perception) seasons that failed to capture the attention of the viewing audience, characters who were, unfortunately, all too often nothing more than stereotypes (the "maverick commander", the "alien observer who doesn't understand humanity" who, as it happens, is also the "ship's babe", the "engineer with an accent" who, as it happens, was also the "good ole boy from the South", the "stuffy Brit", etc.), and, of course, exceedingly poor support (which is the same as hostility) from the Network.

JMHO

ETA: Reference to the inane ship's babe.



I agree completely with your second paragraph. In the first, however, there's more than one variable involved in DS9 and/or modern Trek's ratings decline, so it is still possible (it would require more detailed analysis and probably polling) that the wealth of characters contributed ratings where fewer characters would have led to an even more rapid ratings decline. I'm just saying that from the available data it is impossible to isolate whether or not the number of charactes on DS9 led to, or staved off, rapid ratings decline. A lot of people thought the ratings decline was in general due to just having two series' on TV and that it divided the fanbase. It stands to reason, since you'll find plenty of bread and butter Star Trek fans who loved one or the other but did not watch the remaining one much, i.e., loved DS9 and never watched Voyager or visa versa. I know many people around here think Voyager was about the worst thign that ever happened to Star Trek, but there ARE quite a few die hard fans of it out there, so those people who were watching Voyager and not DS9, does not necessarily reflect that DS9 was a poorer show, simply that they liked any number of aspects of Voyager more. But you're right, there is something to wonder about when it comes to modern Trek's ratings decline. I think TNG was just so new that it garnered a lot of interest. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the TOS crowd that came whooping and hollering with glee, turned around, disappointed with TNG and were not fans of the subsequent series. It's been my experience that there's a pretty prevalent elitism attitude among some TOS fans at conventions and stuff.

A quick note on the military matter: I knew there was a reason it seemed wrong to have a Major in charge of so few guys. But you said it was a higher rank than you'd see out in the field except maybe under SF circumstances, but I can think of two examples where that rank or higher was in combat (that weren't SF): one was that General James Mattis (USMC) was actually on the ground with the 1/1 in Afghanistan in 2001/2, the other is Major Doug Zembiec (USMC) who was killed in combat in Baghdad this year. I'm not trying to praise the Marine Corps or anything, but asking an honest question, is this more common in the Marines, for high level officers to be in the field? Or are these isolated examples?

Rigil Kent wrote: Which leads back to the very obvious intent of the execs to make the MACOs a "Special Forces" (which they obviously weren't), in which case, they would be split up differently than platoon elements (specifically, several A Teams and a single B Team).

I can't help but to point out that we're using modern US Navy/Marine Corps as a basis when it's pretty clear that UESPA Starfleet is very much not based on those templates in any incarnation of Trek (but especially ENT & TOS).


Not always, at least not in the Marines. Reconnassaince Bn's are separated into platoon elements. But if I am correct, the A team and B team thing is from Army SF and Delta, right? In the Army SF sense, you'd be correct. And the only reason I'm referring to the modern USN/USMC is because if we don't refer to ANYTHING, then we have no basis to go from, and there's no discussion to be had at all about it really, because anyone's opinion on the matter is as accurate as anybody else's. There's no right answer in that situation. And Starfleet/UES doesn't seem to resemble anything else, so it seems a good a choice as any. BSG's certainly a lot more adherant to maritime style, of course.

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Elessar wrote:One of my biggest complaints with Enterprise and why it didn't BUILD the Trekkie fanbase but rather just held onto the fanatics in most cases (like us! :D) was because all the characters were, at least at first, squeaky-clean. Nobody had a dark side, which I know isn't Trek's style, but even B'Elanna had a dark side. Lon Suder was probably THE MOST INTERESTING character of Voyager, for that reason. Malcolm's S31 history made him so much more interesting, but his squeaky-cleanness from the first 4 years made it, frankly, a little hard for me to swallow for him. I liked it, but the character should have been written a little darker from the outset, a little less PBS-certified, to make that flow better. Same with Travis, imo that's what made him so bad, not just that he had no lines. That he was so 1-D.


I don't think you have to get into a deep, dark, tortured past to have a great character. Trip, for instance, is pretty "squeaky clean" BUT wasn't a flat character. I would've liked to have seen more of that.


I don't think I'd call Trip squeaky clean though. He had what amounted to, in a space-oriented culture, the 22nd century version of a little bit of xenophobia and certainly more than a healthy attitude of provincialism when it came to judging alien cultures. He certainly got over that for the most part, but it's definitely a part of his character. We also saw a dark side of the way he deals with loss... Trip's the kind of guy I could see becoming an alcoholic if he didn't have the right friends around him when something bad happened.

It's the 1-dimensionality that makes characters boring to me... And I guess one of their multiple dimensions doesn't HAVE to be evil-ness or darkness, but every example of a compelling, multidimensional character I can think of IS like that.
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Re: Imagine: ENT entering its final season

Postby blacknblue » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:02 am

There is nothing wrong with a squeaky clean character as long as they have some 3 dimensional qualities. Cookie cutter characters a boring whether they are good guys or villains. Trip was interesting because he had depth. Trineer played him well, but the writers seemed to take a little extra time with him and for some strange reason, Somebody got hold of Trip who actually had an idea about who he was and wrote him accordingly.

Poor Bakula meanwhile, got stuck with a character that TPTB could never make up their minds about. None of them seemed to have any real idea who Archer was, had been, or was going to end up as. How could he possibly play a character like that properly?
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Re: Imagine: ENT entering its final season

Postby JadziaKathryn » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:05 am

I don't know about the alcoholism part; I rather see him as closing off... kind of like "I Am A Rock" by Simon & Garfunkel. (I've built walls/ a fortress deep and mighty / that none may penetrate... A rock feels no pain/ and an island never cries).
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Re: Imagine: ENT entering its final season

Postby Elessar » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:05 am

You're right, I added a line about that... it's the multidimensionality that counts, not just being dark. What I'm saying though is that I am at a loss to think of a multidimensional character, one of whose dimensions was NOT darkness.

JadziaKathryn wrote:I don't know about the alcoholism part; I rather see him as closing off... kind of like "I Am A Rock" by Simon & Garfunkel. (I've built walls/ a fortress deep and mighty / that none may penetrate... A rock feels no pain/ and an island never cries).



I don't know, it's just my opinion I guess. I could see him closing off when he gets hurt like you're saying, but he's definitely a social drinker, and I could just see the combination of 1. wanting to be alone and close off to the world when he's in pain + 2. being no stranger to alcohol, would open the possibility of him turning to it for solace.
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Re: Imagine: ENT entering its final season

Postby JadziaKathryn » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:07 am

Spock?
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Re: Imagine: ENT entering its final season

Postby Elessar » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:08 am

Well Spock had a human side... doesn't that count as a dark side? Hmm... you could be right. I don't know.
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Re: Imagine: ENT entering its final season

Postby CX » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:41 am

Part of the reason DS9 didn't do as well in the ratings was that most of the NBC affiliates put it on very late at night. Here it came on midnight Saturday night. History repeated itself. :mad:

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Re: Imagine: ENT entering its final season

Postby Elessar » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:46 am

Oh yeah? See I didn't know that, I didn't watch it when it was airing... I was only passively interested in star trek in that time period.
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Re: Imagine: ENT entering its final season

Postby Rigil Kent » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:59 pm

Elessar wrote:In the first, however, there's more than one variable involved in DS9 and/or modern Trek's ratings decline, so it is still possible (it would require more detailed analysis and probably polling) that the wealth of characters contributed ratings where fewer characters would have led to an even more rapid ratings decline. I'm just saying that from the available data it is impossible to isolate whether or not the number of charactes on DS9 led to, or staved off, rapid ratings decline.

But that's not what you said. You implied that there was a direct correlation to more characters equaling more ratings. Thus, the argument doesn't stand up when studied. It's entirely possible that it may have some validity - as I've stated during my various reviews, the fact that they're willing to sideline the captain for an episode so they can focus on a different character in DS9 thrills me, and makes me wish they would have done the same thing in ENT a couple of times instead of putting Archer at the forefront of every damned thing. But simply having lots of characters doesn't equate more ratings: look at BSG and its relatively flat ratings for the last two seasons (ratings that, at their highest, haven't been greater than ENT's ratings during it's original run.)

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the TOS crowd that came whooping and hollering with glee, turned around, disappointed with TNG and were not fans of the subsequent series.

Raises hand. I watched the first season of TNG and hated it. I've since seen the rest of the series (at some point) and even when it is "good", I still hate it.

is this more common in the Marines, for high level officers to be in the field? Or are these isolated examples?

There's always going to be exceptions to the rule and I don't know enough about the Jarheads to say anything. In the Army, infantry colonels (LTC and COL) would be in the field, but they command battalions and brigades, while majors serve as battalion XO's or S2 (Intelligence) or S3 (Operations) officers. They don't command platoons. Even a captain/O-3 wouldn't be commanding a platoon - they're in charge of companies/batteries.

But if I am correct, the A team and B team thing is from Army SF and Delta, right?

Saying SF and Delta isn't necessary since Delta is SF, but yeah.

Jumping back to what I want to see in the s5-s7 run: a court-martial. Nah, I'm serious here. As many times as Archer plays fast and loose with the rules, and as many times as he blatantly screws up so as to require his officers to pull his ass out of the fire, I want to see him face the consequences of his actions. Have him make a decision that blows up in his face (ala DS9's Rules of Engagement), and then use said proceedings to get inside his head. I'd go so far as to hire the people who played the aliens in Damage and reshoot some scenes (from different angles, and stuff) so it's not a flashback episode, but dammit, I want to see actions have consequences!
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Re: Imagine: ENT entering its final season

Postby Kevin Thomas Riley » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:21 pm

One main character or 20 doesn't mean anything for a show. What matters is how they are written and performed. Whether ENT should focus on a few or even introduce more is beside the point if those characters, no matter how many they are, aren't given interesting personalities, background and developments, and interesting stories to act in.

The question about viewership and ratings for the different shows would IMO belong in another thread.
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Re: Imagine: ENT entering its final season

Postby Rigil Kent » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:37 pm

Kevin Thomas Riley wrote:
Rigil Kent wrote:I'm not sure how you can say that they're necessarily understaffed, though, since I seem to recall that they established early in the series that sleeping space was already at a premium. (Still dunno where they put the MACOs at ...)

Such a statement (if it was made) doesn't wash considering the size and layout of the ship. It's been mentioned before that the ship should actually have more crew members when you look at how large it is.

I have rationalized this that the NX-01 was pressed into service (Broken Bow) before the crew was complete. Thus I see no problem where they'd house the MACOs. If sleeping space was a premium at original launch, then I just assume they hadn't finished making crew quarters out of the available space.

Dunno how I missed this before, but I figured I should reply. My problem with this theory is that it is rampant incompetence if they put a ship out there that isn't fully staffed and then, once the "emergency" is dealt with, leave it out there while understaffed. If they originally shipped in Broken Bow without the full complement (something that there is no evidence of on the screen), then it stands to reason that they would, once the silly Klingon story is over, rendezvous with another Earth ship and bring the complement up to normal. Running on a skeleton crew is dangerous as it ultimately leads to burn-out of the crew. No matter how much I may dislike the Archer character, I can't see him being that incompetent.

Another episode that I'd really like to see is one that I think they should have done during season 3 instead of the crappy stuff like Doctor's Orders. In the middle of the E/R War, while the Fleet is deployed and after a major battle in which Earth got spanked, I would do an episode that was based entirely on Earth and centered around one of the Starfleet Command senior officers. Obviously, Forrest would serve this role in season 3, but since the idiots killed off the one interesting SFC officer who wasnt corrupt, an idiot, or a traitor, we'd have to find someone else to fill this role. With this episode, possibly framed by a scrambled and distorted transmission from Archer (thus fulfilling his "in every episode" contract), we could see how Earth is dealing with war. Are there peace rallies? Riots in the streets? How is the media dealing with the war? The government? Are organizations like Terra Prime regaining strength?
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Re: Imagine: ENT entering its final season

Postby Kevin Thomas Riley » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:59 pm

Rigil Kent wrote:
Kevin Thomas Riley wrote:
Rigil Kent wrote:I'm not sure how you can say that they're necessarily understaffed, though, since I seem to recall that they established early in the series that sleeping space was already at a premium. (Still dunno where they put the MACOs at ...)

Such a statement (if it was made) doesn't wash considering the size and layout of the ship. It's been mentioned before that the ship should actually have more crew members when you look at how large it is.

I have rationalized this that the NX-01 was pressed into service (Broken Bow) before the crew was complete. Thus I see no problem where they'd house the MACOs. If sleeping space was a premium at original launch, then I just assume they hadn't finished making crew quarters out of the available space.

Dunno how I missed this before, but I figured I should reply. My problem with this theory is that it is rampant incompetence if they put a ship out there that isn't fully staffed and then, once the "emergency" is dealt with, leave it out there while understaffed. If they originally shipped in Broken Bow without the full complement (something that there is no evidence of on the screen), then it stands to reason that they would, once the silly Klingon story is over, rendezvous with another Earth ship and bring the complement up to normal. Running on a skeleton crew is dangerous as it ultimately leads to burn-out of the crew. No matter how much I may dislike the Archer character, I can't see him being that incompetent.

Actually he was. Remember for example that the ship wasn't even fully armed one episode later,

From my review of Fight or Flight:

Considering the inherent dangers that lurk in deep space it is surprising how unprepared the Enterprise is. I know they launched ahead of schedule, but wouldn't it be prudent to have returned for proper weapons upgrades and tests, once the immediate Suliban crisis was resolved in Broken Bow? Now we see that their only major weapon, their torpedoes, aren't really safe to operate, as they nearly blow themselves up while doing target practice on asteroids

And as late as by episode 12 Silent Enemy they had to jury rig some additional phase cannons.

So I can readily believe that they didn't have a full crew compliment. And even if they had I still stand by that the ship is large enough to house a crew of more than 83 without any problems.
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Re: Imagine: ENT entering its final season

Postby Rigil Kent » Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:02 pm

Sigh. I concede the argument then and, with great effort, will refrain from ranting about the abject stupidity and incompetence of the idiots in charge of this show. Remember: I've blocked most of the first two seasons from memory since, if I got rid of all of the eps that I disliked, I might have a full season. Maybe.

:bitch: :explode:
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Re: Imagine: ENT entering its final season

Postby Kevin Thomas Riley » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:47 pm

Heh!

I like your story ideas about a court-martial and Starfleet Comamnd/Earth though.
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Re: Imagine: ENT entering its final season

Postby JadziaKathryn » Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:24 pm

Rigil Kent wrote: Even a captain/O-3 wouldn't be commanding a platoon - they're in charge of companies/batteries.
Does that make it safer for a captain? (Asks hopefully, being pen pals with an Army captain who's going to Iraq in the fall.)

In a semi-related note, that made me wonder what rank would be standard, in the ENT period, for the commanding officer of a starbase. That's something else I would've liked to have seen: Earth/Starfleet establishing a few bases out and about space.

In regards to a court-martial, it's a given that Archer wouldn't be taken off the ship, because that would be the end of him on the show if he's cashiered out of Starfleet. That presents a problem of giving a satisfying resolution to such an episode, I guess. Because if they find that he didn't do anything wrong, that gives Starfleet a moral black eye.
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