Canon: Fate of Trip and T'Pol unknown

[RecursiveThinking]

I wrote this logical argumentation(vulcans would sure like it ) for the discussion about trips death
on memory alpha (they supposed to respect canon doesnt look to to me that way XD).
It would be great if you boys and girls could read it and tell me your opinion and perhaps tell me if i should improve some things in the argumentation:

Any kind of media which represents a historical event must be based
on a historical record. The holodeck program in These are the voyages is
such a media. Also every discussion of Riker and Troi about Trips death or more generally the events represented by the holodeck program
must be based on a historical record (there werent there after all). Therefore the logical consequence is that the historical records
at the year 2370 state that Charles Tucker III died in 2161. There is however
no proof that Charles Tucker III died in 2161. This means that the state of Charles Tucker III
is unknown. In order to follow this argumentation it is important to differentiate historie
as described in the Star Trek universe and actual canon facts. Canon is that
the historical records as of 2370(date at which the events of these are the voyages take place)
state that Charles Tucker III died in 2161, not more not less.The fate of Charles Tucker III (the real one not the historical person)
is therefore unknown. (Same goes for the romance with T'Pol)
Therefore i would ask the authors of this article to rectify these canon violations.

As a side note: Alelou has with "having his baby" a really wonderful setup (perhaps minor changes are needed to it) lined up
for a great final fix (sequel to "having his baby"). If Alelou wants to know more about it just write me a message.

[Cogito]

I'm not at all persuaded by the argument that it was shown, therefore it must have represented accurate history as far as it was known at that time.

Mainly, because I don't want to be persuaded, and there are plenty of ways to rationalise *the_abomination* being completely wrong. My favourite at the moment is Alelou's 'missing scene' for *the_abomination*.

Of course, there are plenty of ways to rationalise *the_abomination* being historically accurate too, if that is the world you want to believe in.

[RecursiveThinking]

Perhaps i should clarify: my intention is to get the entry at memory alpha about Trip changed which states that he was killed in 2161 and that his relationship
with T'Pol ended in 2155. Memory Alpha is supposed to be cannon. My argumentation shows that the Statement that Trip is killed in 2161 is not cannon (same with the relationship).
But people read about the stuff and think ok Trip was killed in 2161 which really makes me mad.

Personally i think that everybody can handle *the abomination* how they want. I hate it. Its the worst piece of Star Trek ever made.
It's an insult to us enterprise fans. After i watched it i stopped watching Star Trek alltogether for several years.

[putaro]

While I dislike *the_abomination* and I can certainly see any number of ways to write around it, Tucker's death seemed to be established fact to Troi and Riker. I looked over the transcript real quick and Troi claims that she has never viewed the holoprogram and then as she and Riker are wandering around the NX-01 they go down to Engineering and she says "It's sad. Commander Tucker had no idea he wouldn't make it back."

So, I'd say that it was accepted fact in 2370 that Tucker didn't make it back from that mission since Troi obviously knows but it wasn't just because she viewed the holoprogram.

The relaunch books cast doubt on all of the historical records of the 215x era by claiming that the common histories were wrong. I'm sure that if there had been a last minute save of Enterprise that some kind of reset switch would have been invoked. However, as it stands, I would have to say that Tucker's death was canon, or at least accepted historical fact.

[Alelou]

I would avoid an open attack and just suggest they preface their discussion by saying something like, "According to a holo-program viewed by Commander Riker and Deanna Troi in XXXX, Tucker died in 2161 and his romance with T'Pol had ended by XXXX. Given that this holo-program contained a number of dubious elements -- a Vulcan comforting an Andorian with physical contact, Commander Shran apparently involved in a jewel heist with criminals, a striking lack of security aboard Enterprise, a peculiar wink from Commander Tucker, an uncharacteristic hug from Captain Archer to Commander T'Pol, and a puzzling failure to have earned promotion by Ensigns Sato and Mayweather -- one could reasonably speculate that this holo-program may not be supplying an entirely accurate historical record.

(Yeah, I can't remember dates worth beans.)

Putaro makes a good point, though.

Canon in Star Trek is hardly sacrosanct (see the 2009 movie). You can reset at any point with time travel, etc. etc. If they ever wanted to, they could bring this entire crew back intact without even breaking a sweat.

[RecursiveThinking]

or at least accepted historical fact

But thats exactly my point Putaro only because Riker and Troi believe (based on the historical record they have access to) that Trip died, does it not make it so.
There is a difference between whats standing in the history books and what actually happened. It could be the case that the history books are accurate
but it also could be the case that they are not. We do not know that.Which means we do not know if Tucker is death or not. Yet memory alpha declares Trip death
in 2161 based on a historical fact of the 24th century which is simply wrong. They do not know it. They do not have proof (a proof would be an tv-episode where tucker dies
and not it's holodeck figure because thats the way how canon is defined; what you see onscreen that is canon).Yes Trips death is a historical fact in 2370,
that's a canon fact. That was exactly what we saw on screen. Nothing more nothing less. But that does not imply that Tucker(the real one) died in 2161 like memory alpha wants us to
believe. We simply do not know what happened to Trip after Terra Prime.

What they could do to retify this situation is to make the relaunch novels canon. The novels and these are the voyages do not contradict each other like some believe
(well from what i heard about them - never read the relaunch books). Then you would know what happened to Trip but as its stands know Trips fate is unknown.

[Silverbullet]

Trip lived, and continued his romance with T'Pol.

Believe what you want that is what I believe.

SB

[Asso]

Personally I do not have much hope that you can do something.
The so-called purists, the fanatics of the rule, hardly will want to bend to the obviousness that a hologram is nothing but fantasy and fiction based on pseudo-historical extrapolations.
But I think it's worth it, and perhaps this may be a possible way: a hologram is nothing but fantasy and fiction based on pseudo-historical extrapolations.And Troy and Riker talk of something they can only suppose. They are talking about a hologram.
They, actually, try to reasoning by using not historical documents.
It is as if we were attempting to describe the past using a fantasy movie.
Well, not infrequently, unfortunately, this happened.

[Silverbullet]

The past is often writen years and years after it happened. History is highly inaccurate because of who wrote it when.

SB

[lfvoy]

All this being said, I doubt the Memory Alpha folks will budge. Check out the talk page on Trip's article; this argument has been made before. There are even some people who like to think that all of ENT was a holodeck exercise.

Sorry to be the bad guy here.

[Rigil Kent]

Not to mention, canonically speaking, they're correct. By its definition in Trek, canon is defined as only the things seen on screen in a live action format, which thus excludes books, comics and cartoons. So according to canon, Tucker died in 2161 and his relationship with T'Pol ended shortly after "Terra Prime." Unless the next reboot movie happens to introduce ADM Lorian and reveal otherwise (which is, IMO, pretty unlikely), this will remain the "canon fate" of Trip and his relationship with T'Pol.

Given that the Relaunch books are considered "official" though (which is one step below canon - it gets even more convoluted with Star Wars), Tucker's death was obviously faked.

[WarpGirl]

Nothing is as convoluted as SW's canon. I've been dealing with it for 8 yrs.

[Cogito]

But the fact that what was shown was only a holodeck program is fundamentally important. What is in canon (by your definition of the term) is that those TNG crew members saw these things happen in the holodeck. That's all that was shown in the broadcast episodes; the events themselves are not canon, only the holodeck depiction of them.

[WarpGirl]

Doesn't matter. according to TPTB canon is defined as live action events on screen if the entire holo was a cartoon you'd have a case.

[Cogito]

Doesn't matter. according to TPTB canon is defined as live action events on screen if the entire holo was a cartoon you'd have a case.

I don't know who you are referring to as TPTB. The term canon means things that are acknowledged as true. They have to be acknowledged by somebody. There is no absolute truth here, only things that people are willing to agree on.

Now if for the purposes of this discussion you use 'canon' to mean those things accepted as true by the admins at Memory Alpha, or by the people who own the IPR for the Trek franchise then you need to make that clear. Otherwise I will take it to mean those things accepted as true by me. Which means what I saw happen in the episodes that were aired, but bearing in mind that this also implies the existence of multiple universes and timelines, and some things that happened in the show may not have happened in the universe and timeline that I believe constitutes the principle universe and timeline of the show. Lorian and his crew existed in one timeline, but this does not mean that the young Trip and T'Pol who met them went on to marry and have a child. Archer was killed and the mission failed and earth was destroyed in Twilight, but this does not prevent the mission from continuing and succeeding in a different timeline.

What we saw on the holodeck was only a holodeck program. It would be daft to accept it as true in the same way that things outside the holodeck are true. If you believed that then you would have to believe that Data actually lived at 221b Baker Street in the late 19th century and that Minuette was real in the same way that Picard was real. All that's canon is that these events were shown on the holodeck.