Beauty/body image, society and everything that's wrong with

[TPoptarts]

All that talk about people's body image and the T'Bum and stuff in my real life inspired me to start this topic (so it wouldn't derail the member pics thread. Help me I'm turning into Rigil!! )

So like this lady in my room she's like in her 50's, (the same lady who says I have to accept the mentality of a slave to be deserving of anything good in my life) she tries to help me, like she knows that guy who's an actor and she took me to meet him today. I mean I'm sure she's a good person but the thing is I feel like she treats me as a little kid I feel like she's patronizing and I feel like a really horrible person for feeling like she patronizes me because she just wanna help

Anyway like she really likes to talk a lot, and I mean a lot for hours and hours that I can't do anything else I'm supposed to do because of that, though it's not really a conversation because she never really lets me say anything. But every like "one sided conversation" pretty much comes down to "T'Poptarts has to change". Like she says that I can't be an actress looking the way I look. She says I gotta lose a lot of weight so I gotta go on a really strict diet (to quote her "you have to be hungry all the time" ), and she like begs me to let her flatten my hair because "curly hair looks bad". And just for the record she's not even in the entertainment industry, never been and really not interested in.

And like today like before we go to meet that actor dude like I brush my hair and everything, then she tells me I gotta be pretty so I gotta wear makeup. And I'm like "I never wear makeup, I don't like wearing makeup". And she like begs and begs because "obviously" I have to wear makeup to look good, and "well then just the pimples and if you don't like you wash it off" etc etc then she covers a pimple and her makeup's too dark for my skin tone and looks like a bruise so I take it off.

Well and then when we were at that actor's house there's this point when she starts telling me like that I have to start being confident, and "being confident" means that I "grow up" and start acting like a woman, and that means that I have to wear makeup and dress like revealing to show my sexuality or whatever. Well first of all I have no sexuality. Yucks. And I'm not selling my body to anyone, like yeah I know that unfortunately in the entertainment industry (and pretty much anywhere because of that) it's hard to find anything that isn't like all sex sex and more sex, and a lot of people in the industry are like totally sleazy but those aren't the kinda roles I wanna get or people I wanna work with. And yeah I know I'm really limiting my options because of that, but there's one thing I like better than being an actress and that's being myself. And since when does what you wear make you "grown up" or whatever. I'm not a frelling child.

And the thing that really weirded me out was when she said I'm gonna start being confident, and being confident is gonna make me wanna be pretty and then I'll start wearing makeup and everything, and I go like "that's not gonna make me wanna wear makeup, I look way better without makeup" (seriously. Makeup makes me look downright scary. At least I'm like decent looking without caking that dren on my face ) and then what does she say:

"No woman looks better without makeup."

Uhhh... WHAT???

[Bether6074]

That is all a matter of opinion and what people have been trained to think. In my opinion anyway. I'm 38 years old and I've worn makeup TWICE in my life. I honestly and truly believe that women look better and more natural without it. My husband agrees. Society sometimes forces their opinions on us and we are expected to comply. This is where I become defiant. You should never be afraid to be who you are. You have the right to be who you are. No one should be telling you who to be. When that is happening or you feel like you don't have the freedom to present yourself the way you are most comfortable with presenting yourself, something is wrong. It's important to remember that most women do not look like Jolene Blalock. It's okay to not have a perfect body. You will find people who accept you as you are and who love you for who you are. In order to feel pretty you have to accept yourself. You can be whatever you want to be. You have the power.

BTW, in saying all of that, I don't mean to say anything negative about wearing makeup. I just think it's about what makes YOU happy and how YOU are comfortable with yourself and just not letting someone else dictate that.

[enterprikayak]

And T'Poptarts, that woman sounds like my mean, mean, mean Grandma who told me to lose weight all my life (tho I was never overweight...she just thinks women should be as thin as they can or their husbands will cheat on them). That woman seems to be pushy as hell and trying to "mother" you and if she was talking to another woman her age, the woman would be like "what's your damage bitch" and you seem to be trying to be respectful to her even though she's socially unaware of how obnoxious and condescending she's being and I think that shows a lot of character.

waydabeeeeee!!! (you'll get far in life if you know how to diplomatically deal with jerks and stupid people, and you're getting SO much practice right now!)

[Elessar]

I think people (women, men, somewhere-in-the-middles) should all strive for a healthy lifestyle... and that may mean losing weight if someone's over weight, but it certainly doesn't mean that "to be healthy" a girl needs to have the body of Jolene Blalock, or even Kate Winslet, who's a little rounder.

I think it's definitely a supply and demand issue... the magazines with the ridiculously wire thin women on the cover keep selling because women still want to be ridiculously wire thin. I don't pretend to know exactly why they want to be wire thin, other than the obvious answer that "guys like it" ? And I know that not even all guys like it. But I have to confess to being a guilty party in the perpetuation of the standard not because I go around telling women to lose weight, but because I am more attracted to skinny women. Sorry, it's just my nature, and it's because Seventeen tells me I'm supposed to be. It's just because when I see a girl about 5'1, 103 lbs, it causes a hormonal response stronger than if I see one 5'1 and 130 lbs. That doesn't mean I can't find the latter attractive, it just means I'm likely to find the former MORE attractive, at least on a localized physical level. But I know a lot of guys who will say things like "she's too skinny" and that is almost never the case in my eyes unless we're talking extreme. For some reason raily-ness is just attractive to me, unless of course it's clear she's bullemic, an addict, or anorexic. Lindsey Lohan was ridin the line there for awhile.

Obviously, I'm against doing anything to your body that isn't about either your self image or your health. You shouldn't do anything to it for anyone else or for an externally-imposed standard, and I imagine that for women it can be difficult to draw the line between "How good I need to look to feel good about myself" and "How good I want to look to feel even better about myself". There's the whole sense of "what's sufficient/good enough" in there to deal with and that can be pretty complicated. I imagine that a lot of women have a hard time trying to follow advice like mine because they've spent so much time and thought trying or wanting to be that cover girl that they don't know what their own standards are, they ALL feel externally imposed.

What of course everyone notices is that none of the social sexual interest in raily-thin women was here in the pre-70's, before the runway model, what with Marilyn Monroe being the premiere sex icon with curves and roundness and everything. I gotta tell you, I think probably the two sexiest women of the pre-runway era were Lauren Bacall and Linda Harrison (Nova, Planet of the Apes )

[Rigil Kent]

I imagine that for women it can be difficult to draw the line between "How good I need to look to feel good about myself" and "How good I want to look to feel even better about myself". There's the whole sense of "what's sufficient/good enough" in there to deal with and that can be pretty complicated. I imagine that a lot of women have a hard time trying to follow advice like mine because they've spent so much time and thought trying or wanting to be that cover girl that they don't know what their own standards are, they ALL feel externally imposed.

Uh ... why are you limiting this to women? Men suffer from the same thing. Look at how certain male actors are shown (Daniel Craig in Casino Royale, or Jamie Bamber for Battlestar Galactica) and how it would be virtually impossible for a regular guy to have a physique like that (since, after all, most of us can't afford to have personal trainers and to spend 4 to 5 hours in a gym every day.)

And I'm one of those guys who look at women and think "damn, she's too skinny!" Keira Knightley springs to mind there; I know she's generally considered attractive, but I can't get over the fact that she looks like she hasn't eaten in weeks.

[TSara]

Glad to see I'm not the only one that rarely if ever wears makeup.

I maybe wear it for special occasions...the most recent being my friends wedding.

Other than that I never wear it....if I do it has to be the cruelty free stuff (Berts Bee's) as I think animal testing on cosmetics is unneeded since cosmetics tend to be a vanity and not a necessity. My personal opinion...not trying to start anything.

As far as the weight issue.....yes I could stand to lose a few pounds....I know this. However because I am also a dancer and I've seen first hand the horrors of exactly what an ED does to a person. It isn't pretty....and I think if more people were aware of what exactly an ED can do to a person....i.e. first hand knowledge more people would be up in arms and realize there is nothing wrong with a woman who is curvy. This is one of the MANY reasons why I LOVE The new DOVE commercials.


T'Poptarts....this woman sounds like a tool. If I were you I just take everything she says like a grain of salt.

[Elessar]

I imagine that for women it can be difficult to draw the line between "How good I need to look to feel good about myself" and "How good I want to look to feel even better about myself". There's the whole sense of "what's sufficient/good enough" in there to deal with and that can be pretty complicated. I imagine that a lot of women have a hard time trying to follow advice like mine because they've spent so much time and thought trying or wanting to be that cover girl that they don't know what their own standards are, they ALL feel externally imposed.

Uh ... why are you limiting this to women? Men suffer from the same thing. Look at how certain male actors are shown (Daniel Craig in Casino Royale, or Jamie Bamber for Battlestar Galactica) and how it would be virtually impossible for a regular guy to have a physique like that (since, after all, most of us can't afford to have personal trainers and to spend 4 to 5 hours in a gym every day.)

And I'm one of those guys who look at women and think "damn, she's too skinny!" Keira Knightley springs to mind there; I know she's generally considered attractive, but I can't get over the fact that she looks like she hasn't eaten in weeks.

I was only specifying women because I was talking about women. It wasn't any indication that I don't think men go through the same thing... after all if we didn't... How in the hell would I know about it?

But women are much more the centerpiece of western media attention than men. There's still a pressure for men to be handsome and chiseled, but I don't think there's the sense in everyday life (say for instance, in public school) that a man has to be chiseled to be accepted socially and considered desirable sexually. But I would definitely say that that is largely true for women.

This is actually a really ironic topic because just last night I was composing a poem for the July Poetry contest over at a new site that we'll be doing a link-exchange with soon, Renassaince Next about a model trying desperately to commit suicide.

[Bether6074]

Well, as I've said before, not all women like big, beefy guys either. My hubby is just a tad overweight...and I'm glad he doesn't lurk here. Stuff happens, though, and bodies aren't perfect. He has a nice smile. Works for me. This is reality.

[JadziaKathryn]

Just a thought - we see TV shows where the man has a few extra pounds and is average-looking, but his wife is skinny and pretty. Yet, we never see the reverse.

I, however, accept that I will never be tall and thin. Both of those ships sailed before I was even born. I'm not overweight, just curvy. I was raised to strive for health more than a certain magic number of pounds, which helped a lot. Also, my value as a human being comes from knowing God loves me, and not how I look. Not that I don't like to look nice, mind you - I just got a great new lip gloss, actually - but it doesn't define me.

[Distracted]

I fought wearing makeup...tooth and nail, actually. When I graduated from college and got married my mother bought me about 500 dollars worth of makeup and told me that "Professional women wear makeup. Society expects it and no one will take you seriously if you look like a twelve year old." (Which I kinda did. Comes from being one of those naturally gaunt girls that everyone hates. 98 pounds. No boobs. Look twelve at 20. You know the type.) So I listened to her. Anyway, weight was never my issue. Looking old enough to drive (and be the doctor) has always, until about 10 years ago, been the challenge. No one cards me anymore at R rated movies, though, and I sure don't weigh 98 pounds anymore. Wouldn't want to.

Now I wear makeup to cover the wrinkles...and the acne. Never knew until I hit forty that it was possible to have both at once.

[Elessar]

You're the doc, doc , but doesn't makeup exacerbate acne since it's all oily?

I've known girls like that who were very raily but didn't necessarily like it because they were kinda boyish looking until college. I don't mind it... big boobs have never been a big thing for me. I mean if they're there, great , but physically there's other stuff I like more (as KTR does ) Lot of the girls I knew like that were very athetic, I think that can stave off hormonal development in girls.

[Bether6074]

I've always been kind of backwards anyway. I'm one of those weird girls that actually feels self-conscious with makeup and more relaxed without it. But being thrown around like a football as a kid by my brothers might have played a part as well. I'm most definitely not a girly girl. I've just always wanted to fight the fight to get people to look inside. Feels a bit like a losing battle sometimes. I get aggravated with the way they seem to throw the body perfect image at young girls today. I mean, just look at the Barbie doll or the bratz dolls. Or even with boys...the big hero type has to look like Superman. Little guys can be heroes too. It's about heart, not muscle size. Sigh. It's just another one of those things with me. My son tells me I'm an idealist (while rolling his eyes). Talking to him can be a downer at times. He's very smart, but cynical and realistic about everything. It's depressing.

[enterprikayak]

I don't pretend to know exactly why they want to be wire thin, other than the obvious answer that "guys like it" ? And I know that not even all guys like it. But I have to confess to being a guilty party in the perpetuation of the standard not because I go around telling women to lose weight, but because I am more attracted to skinny women. Sorry, it's just my nature, and it's because Seventeen tells me I'm supposed to be

Don't feel bad. Every human is being programmed by the images flashing in front of our eyes....not just one gender. If you have the boobs, then you worry about BEing that image. If you're the guy, you worry about GETTing that skinny girl on your arm.

And of course, MOST of us can even have faint stirrings in our heads "i'm too fat" "skinny chicks are hot", etc, that then our LOGICAL brains can override. In fact, it's probably good for us to admit that the media has that influence in a small way on all of our thinking, in order to be better prepared to defeat it if necessary.

As for the guys vs. girls body issues, I totally agree that they usually show only perfect-looking men as well for all you poor saps to live up to. ;^) Connor's arms are hardly ubiquitous at the supermarket. And as for the fact that MY hubby has similar-looking ones, I suppose I should just count me blessings.

However, I feel that (aside from roids, of course) the effort to build your body up to a strong ass-kicking muscleman body is a worthier pursuit that starving yourself to look skinny. And in this way, I feel guys have the longer end of the stick. Take 2 humans, one male, one female. Both soft and podgy and feeling like crap about their looks. Both go off on a killer tangent to get the bod they want:

Male goes to gym and works his ass off and eats extra steaks and milk and eggs and protein powder (and yes: collapses his kidneys, but whatever), and does pushups and situps and reads muscle mags.

and the GIRL gets out her calculator and figures out her BMI and figures out how many dozens of calories she's going to "allow" herself to eat and then she does all kinds of strenuous cardio with no food energy in her system, and of course, this is a stupid way to "sculpt" your body and due to the lack of blood sugar and the role models, every day she looks in the mirror she looks and feels worse. Then she eats a tub of ice cream in a fit of despair. Then, she's got the chance to veer off down ipecac road here and really journey into the land of the unhealthy and underfed.

Bulimic teeth are gross. I was a dental assistant and I saw em up close a few times. What a delicate issue. What do you say to the person?

[Bether6074]

Connor is a rarity. He's been blessed with the looks and the body, but he also seems to be a down to earth and genuinely nice guy.

As I've said before, being physically attracted to someone may indeed reel you in, but that alone will not make a relationship last. It's compatability and friendship that matter in the end. I believe that anyway.

[blacknblue]

I don't pretend to know exactly why they want to be wire thin, other than the obvious answer that "guys like it" ? And I know that not even all guys like it. But I have to confess to being a guilty party in the perpetuation of the standard not because I go around telling women to lose weight, but because I am more attracted to skinny women. Sorry, it's just my nature, and it's because Seventeen tells me I'm supposed to be

Don't feel bad. Every human is being programmed by the images flashing in front of our eyes....not just one gender. If you have the boobs, then you worry about BEing that image. If you're the guy, you worry about GETTing that skinny girl on your arm.

And of course, MOST of us can even have faint stirrings in our heads "i'm too fat" "skinny chicks are hot", etc, that then our LOGICAL brains can override. In fact, it's probably good for us to admit that the media has that influence in a small way on all of our thinking, in order to be better prepared to defeat it if necessary.

As for the guys vs. girls body issues, I totally agree that they usually show only perfect-looking men as well for all you poor saps to live up to. ;^) Connor's arms are hardly ubiquitous at the supermarket. And as for the fact that MY hubby has similar-looking ones, I suppose I should just count me blessings.

However, I feel that (aside from roids, of course) the effort to build your body up to a strong ass-kicking muscleman body is a worthier pursuit that starving yourself to look skinny. And in this way, I feel guys have the longer end of the stick. Take 2 humans, one male, one female. Both soft and podgy and feeling like crap about their looks. Both go off on a killer tangent to get the bod they want:

Male goes to gym and works his ass off and eats extra steaks and milk and eggs and protein powder (and yes: collapses his kidneys, but whatever), and does pushups and situps and reads muscle mags.

and the GIRL gets out her calculator and figures out her BMI and figures out how many dozens of calories she's going to "allow" herself to eat and then she does all kinds of strenuous cardio with no food energy in her system, and of course, this is a stupid way to "sculpt" your body and due to the lack of blood sugar and the role models, every day she looks in the mirror she looks and feels worse. Then she eats a tub of ice cream in a fit of despair. Then, she's got the chance to veer off down ipecac road here and really journey into the land of the unhealthy and underfed.

Bulimic teeth are gross. I was a dental assistant and I saw em up close a few times. What a delicate issue. What do you say to the person?

Um... that part about collapsing his kidneys is worth noting. The kind of lifestyle that prmotes the perfect male body image is quite likely to KILL YOU lady. Granted, so is bulimia and anorexia. But most women who try to stay thin aren't bulimic or anorexic. Overdoing it at the gym can lead to heart failure, back trouble, steroid abuse, and a whole host of other stupid problems. It can also drive you crazy and you end up murdering your family and then eating your own pistol. Not good.

The whole concept of trying to be what someone else wants you to be comes from lack of self-confidence. Learn to be proud of who you are and tell the world to kiss your hairy ass. That's all you have to do.

And any healthy person is attractive, no matter how they are made. A healthy person is neither floppy fat nor rail thin. A person who is truly healthy is going to have the proper amount of body fat for their physiology. A healthy person is neither too muscle bound to comb their own hair, nor too frail to pick up a fork. They move easily and smoothly, with grace and dignity. A healthy person smiles readily, has a sparkle in their eye, and a spring in their step.

A healthy person is also healthy in mind. They like themselves, they are always willing to like and accept other people for who they are, because they can accept THEMSELVES for who they are. That is part of what makes them healthy. And people like that are very attractive.

The rest of it is personal taste. Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. For my taste, I prefer short, freckled, curly brunettes with voluptuous curves, sparkling brown eyes that snap with fire, strong but not bulky arms and legs, a button nose, full lips, and a no bullshit attitude. So that is who I married. To each their own.