Was there ever a direct order?

[Aquarius]

T'Pol NEVER outranked Trip. Her Vulcan rank meant squat on a human Starship. In season three she had no rank at all. She never wore insignia of Rank in Season Three. When she requested to join Starfleet she came in as a junior Commander. Trip's Time in Srvice and time in grade woud put him in as Senior Commander. It would still be that way in the 22nd century as it is today. Change in the militarty is glacial.

Answer this: Would Andoirans, Vulcans or Klingon allow a tellrite Officer who might have an Equvalent Rank higher than the comander of a unit be allowedto command that unit? don't think so. None of them Vulcan, Andorian, Tellerite, Klingon or any other species would allow that. So, are Humans so stupd and intept that they need a Vulcan to take the by the hand and lead them? doubt that too. would the human crew accept a vulcan that they didn't know take comand or whould they want Tucker who they know is the Second Highest ranking Starfleet Officer on board and de facto FO to take ommand. What is a field commision? A Brevet commision? Archer is not authorized to grant one. that has to come from higher Authority. He can't grant a battle field commision as that can only be given to an Enlisted person of his own organiztion (military)

I know it is fiction but even fiction should have as much reality as possible to make te story more believable. I could never understand why Tucker couldn't be the Fo and Chief Engineer. He had a very good crew who could take care of the day to day operations so he would not be needed in Engineering most of the time.

I still say TPTB wanted Ent to be as close to the concept of TOS as possible so they had a Vulcan as FO and science Officer reven if they had to bring her in the back door.

SB--you argue this every time the subject comes up, and every time the answer is the same: NOT in Enterprise's universe. The rules you insist the show should follow weren't followed, so as much as it may annoy you, they don't count. Please make peace with it and stop arguing with people who want to work within the framework of the show.

[honeybee]

Agreed. The Star Trek universe isn't our universe. It's fair to point that out, but the fact is that T'Pol was the XO, she did outrank Trip and that's not debatable. Starfleet obviously has different rules that our universe, so of which are designed to for the convenience of the writers.

[WarpGirl]

Well I don't think anyone said it made sense. That really isn't the point. But to keep playing Devil's Advocate, I think T'Pol was an under the table deal...

Starfleet needed the Vulcan Star Charts, this is a fact. The Vulcans strenuously objected to them bringing Klaang home, but they can't stop them... Starfleet wants to get out there, but they know they can't do it without Vulcan help... So in the grand tradition of politics a "secret deal" is reached...

Please we're allies, we're different yes, but we can help each other. You know we can be valuable that's why you stuck around

Fine but you're taking along our observer and when you idiots screw up (which you will) she'll bail you out of the mess, so she can assume command if the Captian is unable to do his duties.

NO!

You need the star charts.

Fine!

[aadarshinah]

Well it doesn't seem so. Earth has a centralized government in ST universe. There is no president of the US there is a Prime Minister of earth.

Ah, but there are govenors of states and, honestly, I couldn't tell you the names of any of the current ones excepting my own and California's - and you just can't not know that one. Just because they're not mentioned doesn't mean that it's not imposible that the US, or any other country, has a president of their own little plot, even if they don't do much.

Actually there's an explanation for the two later points from your list. Ever seen the Next Generation episode The Chase?

Yeah, but never bought that. I'm a fan of the whole we-each-evolved-on-our-own-planets-without-any-outside-help, but I've no real basis on that. If life can evolve on one planet, there's no reason to say it can't evolve on other planets... And, if I could think of a way to fit it into the convo, I'd point out the Fermi Paradox and the calculated likihood that any species that manages to reach our level of sentience will destroy itself before ever coming into contact with another alien race.... but instead I'll try to find this lovely article I once read on the liklihood that any species to become spacefaring must be realitively humanoid in appearance, for various reasons I can no longer remember... I think CJ Chyrrh makes use of it in Explorer, the 6th book of her Foreinger series, but I can't for the life of me remember the original article's name....

[Alelou]

aardarshinah beat me to it, but I'm going to post this anyway...

Well it doesn't seem so. Earth has a centralized government in ST universe. There is no president of the US there is a Prime Minister of earth.

We don't know that there's no U.S. President. They never say. There could still be one, but the President or PM or whoever of United Earth would obviously be more important. It makes sense that just as we elect our governors, we might continue to elect the leaders of our own national governments.

In fact, it is pretty much implied that these separate governing bodies still exist, since in Shuttle Pod One Malcolm clearly suggests the English school system is different from the American one.

[Aquarius]

They also don't talk about states having governors or cities having mayors but that doesn't mean they're not there.

[WarpGirl]

Who knows what kind of family would send their kid to a place like Eton 200 years from now???????????? Who says the concept of Democracy is the same 200 years from now????????? The concept has evolved since Ancient Greece....

[Aquarius]

Aquarius maybe they don't have mayors or govenors 150 years from now, maybe the concept of a state is different too. Sure California exists, and Alaska, and others, but maybe they don't have govrnments anymore.

Doubtful, since running things on that big of a scale would be a logistical nightmare. And considering that even by Kirk's time you had places referring to themselves as "the untied states of (fill in the blank) (as in United States of America, and ever since the 60s and 70s Uhura's biographical information has said she's from the United States of Africa), that suggests that unions of individual entities that govern themselves still exist in the 23rd century...which means they have individual governments. Sorry, but I can't see government at the local level ever disappearing.

Look at it this way: by Kirk's time, there's a President of the Federation...but the worlds comprising the Federation still have the right to self-determination and self-government. They've just agreed to share certain resources and follow certain rules as part of the price of membership; the member worlds have not given up the right to govern themselves.

[WarpGirl]

I'm not saying it isn't possible... What I am saying is that 200 or 300 years from now, the technology and social change, might make local governments as we understand them outdated. Kind of like the lap-top I had 10 years ago. Instead of local governments for countries, they may be for continents.

The truth of the matter is I can't see 22nd century earth run like the EU or UN is because the bottom line is the EU cannot run one country in europe, for example England. And the UN does not have power over a country like the US. And from what we've seen in all treks countries don't have individual soveriegnty. Planets in the Federation have individual soveriegnty but that doesn't mean Earth is a global 21st century US.

[Aquarius]

And from what we've seen in all treks countries don't have individual soveriegnty. Planets in the Federation have individual soveriegnty but that doesn't mean Earth is a global 21st century US.

As far as I remember it's only been said that Earth is "united," not that one government is running the whole show.

And if your assertion were true, Chekov would've identified as being "from Earth," not "from Russia," Scott as "Terran" not "Scottish," etc. So on some level borders still matter. Diversification and cooperation were core to everything Star Trek stood for; Roddenberry never intended for us to have the impression that Planet Earth became homogenized.

[WarpGirl]

<sigh> Seriously I'm not saying that cultures don't exist I'm not saying that earth is homoginized. All I'm saying is that over the next two centuries the WAY democracy works might be different. Its obvious earth in ST is a democracy. But it doesn't mean its the democracy people in the US know it now.

[Aquarius]

Sure.

Back to the original question: Did T'Pol ever order Trip to do anything?

The answer: Yes.

Follow-up question: Did Trip always follow those orders?

The answer: Not really.

Discuss.

[WarpGirl]

I don't remember him disobeying an order when he's sane, meaning no pollen, illness, or crazy alien thing... Did I miss an episode?

[Aquarius]

No, WG, you didn't miss anything. Just re-railing the thread for anyone who had anything interesting and on-topic to add.

[WarpGirl]

Follow-up question: Did Trip always follow those orders?

The answer: Not really.

OK Then respectfully... What the heck does that mean? If Trip didn't disobey orders, then he always followed them.