My New Baby...

[Elessar]

The thing is, laws only matter to the people who follow them. Did that Virginia Tech kid care that it was against the law to bring guns on campus? Would any criminal care that guns are banned anywhere? And even if you did manage to reduce the number of firearms in criminal hands, it's been seen in places where gun bans are in place (like the UK) that knifings and other violent crime go up, simply because the same criminals have found new weapons.

The argument made for "getting rid of guns" isn't that the criminals would care that it's illegal to own one, it's an argument made on the basis that fewer guns available means it would be tougher to get one. And I didn't say IMPOSSIBLE to get one so nobody needs to go off all "Oh there will always be guns smuggled in", well sure, but basic logic tells you that if something's legal and every law abiding citizen is X and every criminal is Y then the people that have the thing that's legal is gonna be Y + some fraction of X whereas if it's illegal and you still treat teh groups the same, the only people that are going to have them are some fraction of Y, none of X. The argument isn't that criminals will care what the laws are, it's about accessibility.

You add guns to a culture where life is cheap and kids grow up playing violent video games in houses where the parent never really grew up, then add in a warring gang or three, and you've got a really scary environment.

Much like guns, you cannot blame games for violent crimes, and no offense to you, but that's a Jack Thompson train of thought. Like with anything else, if someone is predisposed to violence, then violent video games would appeal to them, make sense? This does not, however, mean that playing violent video games makes one more predisposed to violence. If anything, if a kid can't tell the difference between the fantasy of a game or any other form of entertainment, then it is the parents fault for not insilling that ability or any other values in their children. Plus, I'm a big fan of first person shooters. Halo and F.E.A.R. are my favorite games. But I have yet to even be involved in a serious fight, and the only two I've been involved in were both initiated by someone else, and I stopped as soon as the threat to myself was past. I don't go around shooting people either, and I hardly think that life is cheap.

I don't think playing violent video games "predisposes" a person to violence because to me that word means "more likely to commit violence", but what I do think violent video games do is desensitize, and when I say this I'm talking about myself, I'm not like some child psychologist sitting in a lab. I think it is easier for me to be comfortable with the idea of taking a life because I've done it so many times on screen, I honestly do. It's all Pavlovian psychology and all that crap, it's conditioning.

And there's a book called On Combat by a LtCol Grossman from US Army SF that talks about this, how we can see from post-war studies and statistics that back in the day in WW1 or WW2, that the average man who was left to his own devices WOULD NOT fire his weapon and kill the enemy. When no one was round and no officers or NCOs were breathing down his neck to pull the trigger, something like less than 20% of troopers would pull the trigger and kill a man. In Vietnam that number was more like 50% and today it's even higher, something like 80 or 90, and Grossman (having trained warriors in the Army for like 25 years) attributes a lot of our modern day advances in realistic training and force-on-force training simulations, which include video game simulations.

Now, this isn't to say that after taking a life, a person like me who was desensitized to the aversion to killing before hand doesn't start shaking and puking his guts out in horror at what he just did, but the important point is the lack of aversion to doing it in the first place. I'll pull that trigger, and I think it's because we're a lot more accustomed to killing.

While we SAY that we don't consider life cheap, we see death and destruction every day on every media outlet there is and in our entertainment. I'm not going to stop seeing it, because I like it, but I still think it's affecting us.

[CX]

The argument made for "getting rid of guns" isn't that the criminals would care that it's illegal to own one, it's an argument made on the basis that fewer guns available means it would be tougher to get one. And I didn't say IMPOSSIBLE to get one so nobody needs to go off all "Oh there will always be guns smuggled in", well sure, but basic logic tells you that if something's legal and every law abiding citizen is X and every criminal is Y then the people that have the thing that's legal is gonna be Y + some fraction of X whereas if it's illegal and you still treat teh groups the same, the only people that are going to have them are some fraction of Y, none of X. The argument isn't that criminals will care what the laws are, it's about accessibility.

There would be fewer guns - all the people who were formerly legally in possession of them would now be without them and unprotected in the face of the criminal element that would still have them.

I don't think playing violent video games "predisposes" a person to violence because to me that word means "more likely to commit violence", but what I do think violent video games do is desensitize, and when I say this I'm talking about myself, I'm not like some child psychologist sitting in a lab. I think it is easier for me to be comfortable with the idea of taking a life because I've done it so many times on screen, I honestly do. It's all Pavlovian psychology and all that crap, it's conditioning.

No offense, but bullshit. My attitudes on the possibility of using deadly force when I was in the military was not at all colored by my gaming experiance and it still isn't. That's exactly the kind of red herring that people like Jack Thompson and Hillary Clinton are pushing in their attempts to ban the kind of games that I like to play. I can't even articulate how bullshit I think that attitude is - "let's ban all violent games because some head doctor says that it might desensitize people towards violence!" And yes, I'm very passionate in my anti-Big Brother views on subjects such as this.

[blacknblue]

I really don't think that banning guns lowers the availability of guns. It raises the price. But thats about it. Banning booze raised the price and gave the mafia its start. It also provided a very good living to the moonshiners in my hills, who later became the pot growers. BTW, marijuana is the number 1 cash crop in the US today, did you know that?

I could get a untraceable gun any time I wanted one, and I have no connections to the underworld of any kind. But it could cost me some cash. You could too, if you had an idea of where to start looking, and if you were willing to be patient while you were checked out. Anyone in the US could. Anyone in Washington DC that wants a gun can get one. Obviously, since the rate of gun homicides today in Washington DC is only slightly higher than it was when they put their gun ban into effect. Obviously anyone in the UK that wants a gun can get one, since their rate of gun crime is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than it was before their gun ban went into effect.

Ad far as video games? I dunno. I spent my youth watching violent westerns where outlaws and stock Amerindians were mowed down like grass, and I have never shot a native american in my life. I also watched Roots, and I have never horsewhipped an african american either. I watched full metal jacket, platoon, and various other movies about Vietnam and I never raped anyone either.

[Elessar]

I think you're misunderstanding me, I don't think they should be banned. If I wanna play a violent video game, I wanna play a violent video game. Whether it's harmful to me or not is nobody's problem but mine - same old American idea that makes EVERYTHING unhealthy free.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you don't need to argue that the "video game violence" thing is BS just to get across your point that they shouldn't ban the games. I mean you may genuinely think that there's nothing substantial to the claims that it's desensitizing, that's a fine position to have, but just make sure you're not arguing that simply because you think that acceding that it does means acceding that they should be banned. To me the two points aren't connected.

I think one of the fundamental probelms discussing anything with regards to murder or killing in this country is the MASSIVE double standard with regard to the sanctity of life. We have at this time in our history probably the MOST prevaling attitudes of pro-militarism of any other time, which requires a certain level of complicity with the taking of life. Not only that but capitol punishment is pretty widely accepted in the U.S., use of deadly force in self defense is widely accepted... I'm not criticizing these ideas, but at the same time as allll these prevaling attitudes are floating around, we've still got predominant Christian theology making a strong fundamentalist comeback, which to me is absolutely nuts. We've got people practicing faith on Sunday where killing is one of the absolutely unconscientable sins and the next day being quite nonchalant about war. I'm not a gigantic anti-war protester, obviously, because I have resolved myself to be ok fighting in, but I'm not in church on Sunday talking about how wrong killing is either. I just think it's a really troublesome double standard when we go to talk about issues like the value of life, the meaning of killing, what constitutes murder and what doesn't.

I get what you're saying about guns being illegal only meaning that the law-abiding would be disarmed and not the non-law abiding but we're still having a disconnect. If there's a kid down the street who wants to get a gun from the older, somewhat shady guy his cousin knows, because he wants to kill a kid a school for something he did to him, it's gonna be easier to get it if there are little-to-no controls on guns than if there are really strict controls, because it's going to be easier for his contact to get it.

I'm not talking about controls like "not legal on campus", I'm talking about controls on how they can be made and sold - I'm talking about limits that effect distribution at the source. Just keep in mind beore you freak out and blow up, I'm just arguing a point about what would happen, it doesn't mean I'm for that. I'm just saying impartially that TO ME, it may not be my opinion that we should do it, but IF you made it completely illegal to manufacture and sell guns to private citizens, you WOULD see gun violence go down because it would be harder to get them - they'd be more expensive because getting them would be riskier for smugglers and the fringe-criminal (not the career criminal) would be more likely to be unable to get one.

[CX]

Two things.

You could never ban the manufacture of firearms, because our military still needs them. Thus, firearms would still be available, and people who really wanted them could still get them, not to mention all the existing firearms that currently exist.

As Bnb pointed out, things like this have been tried and are still being tried, and all fail. Bannign alcohol did not end alcoholism. Banning drugs has not ended substance abuse. Banning guns in the UK has not ended gun crimes, and they have in fact increased.

Therfore, you cannot claim that banning guns would have the effect of making gun crimes decrease, because we've seen examples where it has not had that effect.

[Asso]

And tobacco?

[Alelou]

I don't think video games on their own cause a kid who has grown up in a loving, attentive home to turn violent. I don't think they cause anything. But I think they can help contribute to numbing the human sensitivity or empathy of kids who are already alienated from family and society. And it frankly just boggles my mind when I see things like Grand Theft Auto.

And no, I'm not advocating any censorship of video games. I just think it's part of the whole pattern.

I've heard of that Georgian town with the counter-intuitive gun control results. Maybe once guns are omnipresent enough, that is the best solution. I don't know what the solution is. I know that I sometimes wish I had a gun and knew how to use it, just so I'd feel more comfortable walking by myself in the woods. But I wouldn't want one in the house, not with a teenage male in the house. No way.

[CX]

Again, video games are fantasy. GTA might not appeal to me, but I can see how it might appeal to some people. After all, I joked about making a "playground of death" in my engineering class recently, because that's just my sense of humor, which is to say dark. This is just like with movies and TV, or books even for that matter.

As for allowing firearms in your own home, that's your own business, even if I don't agree with your reasoning.

Instead, I'll just tell you about my family, which consisted of two parents and three children. I'm the only male child. All three of us are perfectly capable of handling firearms with respect, though our family doesn't follow all of the saefty guidlines that are recommended for their use. For instance, we keep loaded firearms within easy access for use - a 12 gauge shotgun and a semi-auto .22. We keep the shotgun's action open because we can (it's pump-action), but we have to keep the .22 with a round in the chamber at all times. I'd persoanlly be cool with having to charge it before I use it, but my mom has never been very good at doing that herself, in fact, she manages to jam the gun almost every time she's tried doing it. Why would mom ever use it? Simple, there are animals around that could represent a threat to her or our pets, and we aren't always around to shoot it for her. In fact, one winter she killed at least 3 skunks after dad and I had already left for the day, and she was still waiting to go to work herself. The fact that it's ready to go at a moment's notice is also the only reason my cat didn't end up breakfast for some fox my dad got this summer. So all this time we've had loaded firearms in my house, yet none of us has managed to shoot our foot off or blow our brains out, or even put in holes in the walls or ceiling, or anything else. So I'll ask an open question: why do you suppose that is? I'll give you my theory in a little bit.

[blacknblue]

I grew up around guns. My wife and her sibs grew up around guns. We are both hillbilly stock. Both of my kids grew up around guns. All of our familiy including parents, grandparents, great grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins galore, in both directions forever have always grown up around guns. We are hillbilly stock for as far back as anyone can trace.

None of us has ever shot ourselves or one of our siblings, or our parents or children. My dad kept a loaded shotgun propped up in the corner of his bedroom next to his bed all my life. But I knew better than to touch it.

You start them early. "This is a gun." Don't touch. Bad. Hurt.

As soon as they are big enough, and I mean as soon as they are big enough, you take them out and show them the gun. You remove the mystery and fascination. You also remove the fearful fascination aspect. It is no longer some supernatural boogie man. It is just a tool.

Parent: This is a gun.

(Points to pumpkin.)

Parent: That is your head.

(Shoots pumpkin. Kid sees pumpkin explode)

Parent: Any questions?

But mainly, we are farming stock. We grew up killing things. We grew up watching our parents and grandparents wringing chickens necks, or using a .22 to shoot the head off a chicken. We grew up watching our fathers shoot squirrels out of trees with shotguns oro .22 rifles. We grew up watching our parents cut the heads off snakes with hoes or corn knives. We grew up watching our parents go out with a rifle.

Parent: Stand here son. Stay well back.
Kid: (Watches closely as father takes aim with rifle)
Parent: (Fires rifle. Hits pig between the eyes. Pig's forehead explodes. Animal drops dead in its tracks.)
Kid: Cool!
Parent: (Hands empty gun to kid) Remember to check it like I taught you. (Watches closely as kid obediently opens breach and confirms that rifle is indeed empty.) Good. Now take it back to the house and bring me the butchering knives while I hang this thing.
Kid: Sure thing Dad. (Runs errand. Returns to find carcass hanging, pouring blood in a steady stream where parent has ripped its throat open in order to let the blood out.)
Parent: OK son. let's open her up.
Kid: Can I cut the guts open this time Dad?

We learned early about life and death, pain and reality in general. It is not such a major shift from learning that an animal can be killed with a gun to realizing that a person can be killed. Which = better leave that gun alone.

Not to speak of the fact that our parents would have beaten us senseless if we have dared to touch one without permission.

[CX]

Yeah, I'd definitely say that education was the primary factor, with experiance playing no small part either. My dad never blew up a pumpkin, but he did get it early on on my head that a gun is in no way shape or form a toy, and that if it can kill an animal it could kill me too. The key thing is having a healthy respect for the machine, its capabilities, and its limitations.

[Escriba]

I don't think banning guns (absolutely forbiding them) it's a good idea. If you make something illegal, you'll end with a very illegal market, criminals making a lot of money and people who didn't think about using them before wanting to use them.

In Spain isn't illegal to have a gun, you can have one, but there is not a custom. Few people have them in their houses. Hunters have shotguns (the ones which shoot pellet,) but not guns, technically speaking. In US people have guns because is part of their culture, in Spain people don't have them because there is not such a custom. It has nothing to do with guns being or not legal. And I don't think North American culture is more violent than ours.

As soon as they are big enough, and I mean as soon as they are big enough, you take them out and show them the gun. You remove the mystery and fascination. You also remove the fearful fascination aspect. It is no longer some supernatural boogie man. It is just a tool.

Parent: This is a gun.

(Points to pumpkin.)

Parent: That is your head.

(Shoots pumpkin. Kid sees pumpkin explode)

Parent: Any questions?

That was happens in a civilized and sane environment. I try to imagine the same scene here and it makes me shudder (and I'm not talking about my family. My family is quite normal.)

[Mitchell]

Nice gun Elessar.

I grew up around guns. My wife and her sibs grew up around guns. We are both hillbilly stock. Both of my kids grew up around guns. All of our familiy including parents, grandparents, great grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins galore, in both directions forever have always grown up around guns. We are hillbilly stock for as far back as anyone can trace.

None of us has ever shot ourselves or one of our siblings, or our parents or children. My dad kept a loaded shotgun propped up in the corner of his bedroom next to his bed all my life. But I knew better than to touch it.

You start them early. "This is a gun." Don't touch. Bad. Hurt.

As soon as they are big enough, and I mean as soon as they are big enough, you take them out and show them the gun. You remove the mystery and fascination. You also remove the fearful fascination aspect. It is no longer some supernatural boogie man. It is just a tool.

Parent: This is a gun.

(Points to pumpkin.)

Parent: That is your head.

(Shoots pumpkin. Kid sees pumpkin explode)

Parent: Any questions?

But mainly, we are farming stock. We grew up killing things. We grew up watching our parents and grandparents wringing chickens necks, or using a .22 to shoot the head off a chicken. We grew up watching our fathers shoot squirrels out of trees with shotguns oro .22 rifles. We grew up watching our parents cut the heads off snakes with hoes or corn knives. We grew up watching our parents go out with a rifle.

Parent: Stand here son. Stay well back.
Kid: (Watches closely as father takes aim with rifle)
Parent: (Fires rifle. Hits pig between the eyes. Pig's forehead explodes. Animal drops dead in its tracks.)
Kid: Cool!
Parent: (Hands empty gun to kid) Remember to check it like I taught you. (Watches closely as kid obediently opens breach and confirms that rifle is indeed empty.) Good. Now take it back to the house and bring me the butchering knives while I hang this thing.
Kid: Sure thing Dad. (Runs errand. Returns to find carcass hanging, pouring blood in a steady stream where parent has ripped its throat open in order to let the blood out.)
Parent: OK son. let's open her up.
Kid: Can I cut the guts open this time Dad?

We learned early about life and death, pain and reality in general. It is not such a major shift from learning that an animal can be killed with a gun to realizing that a person can be killed. Which = better leave that gun alone.

Not to speak of the fact that our parents would have beaten us senseless if we have dared to touch one without permission.

Ditto.
Accept (I dont have a wife yet either) we blew the crap out of Ol Target Trees, instead of pumkins. After the target practice was over with, the youngins, would run out to the Tree, an try to pull the bullets out,, if they didnt go completely through it that is. We all got the impression That while Guns are one Neat tool, they are the most dangerous one, an need to be properly handled, an respected.

An even Bulls seem to know that a gun is not a thing to mess with/respect, with out even being shot.
Had a friend stop a charging 1 ton Holstien Bull buy firing a 45 into the air, once.

Heck just last year I stopped our last 1 ton bull from turning me into burger, buy firing a 12ga Turkey load over his back. Stopped him Dead in his tracks. Had him thinkin.

Ive honestly never been affraid of other Humans here where I live back in the sticks. An the very few times that their is ever a Criminal/fugitive on the lose in my part of the state they (in my life time) never have even attempted to get into any homes. Heck bout 5 years ago, one guy shot an killed 2 sherifs deputies. He wasnt captured till the next day. He was found in the middle of a Hay field, on the side of a Moutain half frozzen. He stayed their all night, An it had dropped below 20 that night. He might of been a Moron, but he wasnt completely stupid. He knew he more then likely would of gotten a face full of lead if he tried to break into someones home.

[blacknblue]

I don't think banning guns (absolutely forbiding them) it's a good idea. If you make something illegal, you'll end with a very illegal market, criminals making a lot of money and people who didn't think about using them before wanting to use them.

In Spain isn't illegal to have a gun, you can have one, but there is not a custom. Few people have them in their houses. Hunters have shotguns (the ones which shoot pellet,) but not guns, technically speaking. In US people have guns because is part of their culture, in Spain people don't have them because there is not such a custom. It has nothing to do with guns being or not legal. And I don't think North American culture is more violent than ours.

As soon as they are big enough, and I mean as soon as they are big enough, you take them out and show them the gun. You remove the mystery and fascination. You also remove the fearful fascination aspect. It is no longer some supernatural boogie man. It is just a tool.

Parent: This is a gun.

(Points to pumpkin.)

Parent: That is your head.

(Shoots pumpkin. Kid sees pumpkin explode)

Parent: Any questions?

That was happens in a civilized and sane environment. I try to imagine the same scene here and it makes me shudder (and I'm not talking about my family. My family is quite normal.)

I hope I did not present my family as a bunch of wild eyed lunatics. The episode I described was merely a cold blooded demonstration (albeit a rather spectacular one to the eyes of a child) of the destructive power of a firearm. It was intended to grab and hold attention. The purpose was to input a powerful memory that would remain in place for a lifetime. And it was effective. I have never forgotten how dangerous a firearm can be. I have killed many times with a gun, but never casually. And never without thinking first of the fact that I was about to end the existence of a living creature.

There has been much debate about the way violent games may or may not desensitize young people to violence. Elessar mentioned something about new recruits in world War 2 being less willing to actually open fire on the enemy than new recruits today. I speculate that this had much less to do with the prevalence of violent video games today - than it did with the prevalence of farm living in the 1940s. A large number of the new US recruits during the WWI and WWII era were either raised on a farm of were the sons of farmers. They knew about guns and what they could do first hand. They had seen death. They had killed many times, like all farmers. They understood pain and death and knew exactly what they were about to do to another human being. And the thought made them sick.

Modern recruits have only been exposed to sanitized violence on a CRT or an LCD screen. There is no stink of blood or the sudden release of ruptured bowel contents on a CRT screen. There is no bubbling, hoarse rasp as something tries desperately to breathe but fails. There is no shriek of terrified agony and something kicking and thrashing while its legs get tangled up in its own guts. There is nothing UGLY about killing in a video game. Maybe that's why it might desensitize people (if it does).

[Escriba]

I hope I did not present my family as a bunch of wild eyed lunatics. The episode I described was merely a cold blooded demonstration (albeit a rather spectacular one to the eyes of a child) of the destructive power of a firearm.

No, the opposite, in fact (at least to my eyes.)

A large number of the new US recruits during the WWI and WWII era were either raised on a farm of were the sons of farmers. They knew about guns and what they could do first hand. They had seen death. They had killed many times, like all farmers. They understood pain and death and knew exactly what they were about to do to another human being. And the thought made them sick.

Yes, for (most of) the farmers death is something quite natural. I think people lived with death more in the past than we do now. We see death, but only in TV or video games. We don't see real death (there are always exceptions, of course.) That makes a difference, I suppose. Doesn't mean we're insensitives robots, just that death is alien to us somehow.

[Mitchell]

Yep. Us farmin folks are here to feed people not Kill em.

Heck out of my Entire Farmin family, their has only been 2 family members who enlisted in the Military when We wernt at War. Besides my one Cousin, an My Grandfather, all my other family members that joined up, only joined during times of War. An usualy after the Draft started up.