TSara & eKayak: Knocked Up!!! :^D

[Escriba]

When people ask Aureilia "Are you going to be a BIG SISTER?", she corrects them: "I am a big sister!"

Yeah, yeah, till her little (brother/sister?) steal her markers to paint her books.

Signed: Eli (Official Book Painter of her older sister.)

[Elessar]

But I don't think it's fair to look at foreign medical systems and make a summary conclusion that one would fail were we to try it. There are like 40 variables that make our country different from like... Bulgaria's. Maybe socialized medicine sucks in Bulgaria because everything sucks in Bulgaria , not because socialized medicine just plain sucks.

We're not talking about Bulgaria, we're talking about basically every country that has ever tried it. We're also talking about other examples, like Canada, which is similiar to the US in a lot of ways, and an example within the US, which is the military health care system. We're also talking aout examples of what happens when there is no competition, even within the medical care system. We're also taling about similiarities to that when a corporate hospital gains a monopoly in an area, because it's something that's directly observable.

You can't point at Cuba. Anybody who points at Cuba and says socialized ____ is failing, is lying, or wrong. I've studied Cuba quite a bit, their system - in as far as you're ONLY talking about the merits of their healthcare and education systems and completely divorcing it of the theological or political implications of socialism - are incredibly successful for a country of their size, population, and gross domestic product, not to mention that they're doing it all while being internationally embargoed.

The system bring proposed isn't a "no-competition/big-brother/huge-monopoly" system. Not in the slightest. You're talking about a one-bodied nationalized healthcare and that's simply not the option being tabled by Democrats.

[CX]

Since when does Soviet Union = Cuba? Just because Micheal Moore tried to misrepresent their health care system and made shit up about it doesn't mean I'm going to do the same thing.

From the Wikipedia article:

Black market healthcare
The difficulty in gaining access to certain medicines and treatments has led to healthcare playing an increasing role in Cuba's burgeoning black market economy, sometimes termed "sociolismo". According to former leading Cuban neurosurgeon and dissident Dr Hilda Molina, "The doctors in the hospitals are charging patients under the table for better or quicker service." Prices for out-of-surgery X-rays have been quoted at $50 to $60.[34] Such "under-the-table payments" reportedly date back to the 1970s, when Cubans used gifts and tips in order to get health benefits. The harsh economic downturn known as the "Special Period" in the 1990s aggravated these payments. The advent of the "dollar economy", a temporary legalisation of the dollar which led some Cubans to receive dollars from their relatives outside of Cuba, meant that a class of Cubans were able to obtain medications and health services that would not be available to them otherwise.[35]

So in other words, they have the same problems as anyone else.

Praise for the Cuban Healthcare System
In 2006, BBC flagship news programme Newsnight featured Cuba's Healthcare system as part of a series identifying "the world's best public services". The report noted that "Thanks chiefly to the American economic blockade, but partly also to the web of strange rules and regulations that constrict Cuban life, the economy is in a terrible mess: national income per head is minuscule, and resources are amazingly tight. Healthcare, however, is a top national priority" The report stated that life expectancy and infant mortality rates are pretty much the same as the USA's. Its doctor-to-patient ratios stand comparison to any country in Western Europe. Its annual total health spend per head, however, comes in at $251; just over a tenth of the UK's. The report concluded that the population's admirable health is one of the key reasons why Castro is still in power.[56] In fact, a recent poll carried out by the Gallup Organization's Costa Rican affiliate — Consultoría Interdisciplinaria en Desarrollo (CID) — found that about three-quarters of Cuban citizens are positive about their country's education and healthcare systems.[57]

In 2000, Secretary General of the United Nations Kofi Annan stated that "Cuba should be the envy of many other nations" adding that achievements in social development are impressive given the size of its gross domestic product per capita. "Cuba demonstrates how much nations can do with the resources they have if they focus on the right priorities - health, education, and literacy."[58] The Kaiser Family Foundation, a non-governmental organization that evaluated Cuba’s healthcare system in 2000-1 described Cuba as "a shining example of the power of public health to transform the health of an entire country by a commitment to prevention and by careful management of its medical resources"[59] President of the World Bank James Wolfensohn also praised Cuba's healthcare system in 2001, saying that "Cuba has done a great job on education and health", at the annual meeting of the Bank and the International Monetary Fund. Wayne Smith, former head of the US Interests Section in Havana identified "the incredible dedication" of Cubans to healthcare, adding that "Doctors in Cuba can make more driving cabs and working in hotels, but they don't. They're just very dedicated".[60] Dr. Robert N. Butler, president of the International Longevity Center in New York and a Pulitzer Prize-winning author on aging, has traveled to Cuba to see firsthand how doctors are trained. He said a principal reason that some health standards in Cuba approach the high American level is that the Cuban system emphasizes early intervention. Clinic visits are free, and the focus is on preventing disease rather than treating it. [61] Furthermore, London's The Guardian newspaper lauded Cuba's public healthcare system for what it viewed as its high quality in a Sept. 12, 2007 article. [62]


Studies of the Cuban health system in the United Kingdom
In 2001, members of the UK House of Commons Health Select Committee traveled to Cuba and issued a report that paid tribute to "the success of the Cuban healthcare system", based on its "strong emphasis on disease prevention" and "commitment to the practice of medicine in a community".[56]

The Parliament of the United Kingdom also drew up an analysis of the key features of Cuba's healthcare system, drawing comparisons with the state funded National Health Service (NHS). The overall conclusion was that many of the features identified would not have occurred had there not been an obvious commitment to health provision demonstrated by the protection and proportion of the budget given the health care. The study concluded the following.

There appeared to be little evidence of a divide between the prevention/proactive response and the disease management/reactive response within Cuban healthcare.
By far the biggest difference was the ratio of doctors per person. In Cuba it was one doctor per 175 people, in the UK the figure was one doctor per 600 people.
There is a commitment in Cuba to the triple diagnosis (physical/psychological/social) at all levels.
Extensive involvement of "patient" and the public in decision making at all levels.
Integration of hospital/community/primary care via polyclinics.
Team-work that works is much more evident both in the community and the hospital sector and the mental-health and care of the elderly sites visited were very well staffed and supported.
The study also pointed to problems within the system, these included;

Low pay of doctors
Poor facilities—buildings in poor state of repair and mostly outdated.
Poor provision of equipment.
Frequent absence of essential drugs.
Concern regarding freedom of choice both for patient and doctor.[63]

Criticisms
The US State Department, citing many independent sources, states that Cuba's infant mortality rate in 1957 was the lowest in Latin America and the 13th lowest in the world, according to UN data. Cuba ranked ahead of France, Belgium, West Germany, Israel, Japan, Austria, Italy, and Spain, all of which would eventually pass Cuba in this indicator during the following decades. Cuba’s comparative world ranking has fallen from 13th to last out of the 25 countries examined. Also missing from the conventional analysis of Cuba's infant mortality rates is its very high abortion rate, which, because of selective termination of "high-risk" pregnancies, yields lower numbers for infant mortality. Cuba's abortion rate was the 3rd highest out of the 60 countries studied. In terms of physicians and dentists per capita, Cuba in 1957 ranked third in Latin America, behind only Uruguay and Argentina -- both of which exceeded the United States in this measure. Cuba's physicians and dentists in 1957 was the same as the Netherlands, and ahead of the United Kingdom and Finland. The report states "Unfortunately, the UN statistical yearbook no longer publishes these statistics, so more recent comparisons are not possible, but it is completely erroneous to characterize pre-Revolutionary Cuba as backward in terms of healthcare."[9]

Complaints have arisen that foreign "health tourists" paying with dollars and senior Communist party officials receive a higher quality of care than Cuban citizens. Former leading Cuban neurosurgeon and dissident Dr Hilda Molina asserts that the central revolutionary objective of free, quality medical care for all has been eroded by Cuba's need for foreign currency. Molina says that following the economic collapse known in Cuba as the Special Period, the Cuban Government established mechanisms designed to turn the medical system into a profit-making enterprise. This creates an enormous disparity in the quality of healthcare services between foreigners and Cubans leading to a form of tourist apartheid. In 1998 she said that foreign patients were routinely inadequately or falsely informed about their medical conditions to increase their medical bills or to hide the fact that Cuba often advertises medical services it is unable to provide.[64] Others makes similar claims, also stating that senior Communist party and military officials can access this higher quality system free of charge.[10][11] In 2005, an account written by Cuban exile and critic of Fidel Castro, Carlos Wotzkow, appeared showing apparent unsanitary and unsafe conditions in the "Clínico Quirúrgico" of Havana;the article claims that health care for Cubans occurs in worse conditions in the rest of the country.[65]

An article in Canadian newspaper National Post, based interviews of Cubans, finds that in reality even the most common pharmaceutical items, such as Aspirin and antibiotics are conspicuously absent or only available on the black market. Surgeons lack basic supplies and must re-use latex gloves. Patients must buy their own sutures on the black market and provide bedsheets and food for extended hospital stays.[12] The Cuban government blames the shortages on the embargo and states that those with more severe chronic diseases receive medicines.[13] However, other sources suggest that also those with such diseases lack medicines. It is also suggested that in some cases the local non-dollar stocks have been shipped abroad. [14][15]

The U.S. State Department has argued that during the economic depression "the Cuban government made a deliberate decision to continue to spend money to maintain its military and internal security apparatus at the expense of other priorities – including healthcare." However, one study found that "the available data show that the fall in Cuba's medicine imports in the '90s didn't correspond to a significant lowering of the government's healthcare spending. Budgetary support for peso-denominated spending – i.e., labor costs of medical professionals, operational costs of hospitals and clinics – has remained strong. Attempts to blame medical shortages in Cuba on resource misallocation are thus misguided, or at least wrongly nuanced."[66]

An article in The Boston Globe, partially based on interviews with Cubans, argues that the massive export of doctors and other medical personal to Venezuela in exchange for oil has caused shortages in Cuba. Regarding Operación Milagro, "It's all the Venezuelans who need cataracts surgery first, and then the Cubans if there's any time left", said Georgina, 60, a retired Havana clerk.[16]

A recent ABC-TV 20/20 report on Healthcare, based on footage taken from within the island, criticized Michael Moore's portrayals of the Cuban Healthcare system. The report highlights the dilapitated conditions of some hospitals that are accessible to regular Cubans by pointing to the bleak conditions of hospital rooms and the filthy conditions of the facilities. The report also addressed the quality of care available to Cubans by arguing that patient neglect was a common phenomenon. Finally, in discussing the infant mortality rate, the report highlights the government's alleged efforts to promote abortions of potentially infirm fetuses and other alleged government efforts to manipulate the rate.[67]

Ion other words, the Cuban health care system isn't what Sicko made it out to be.


Speaking of Sicko:

Media
Sicko received a standing ovation at Cannes. Some Canadian journalists attending the premiere were less complimentary, objecting to the depiction of Canadian, French and British health care system.[23]

Roger Ebert gave the film three and a half out of four stars, observing that Moore was less "cocky" than in his previous films, and placed less emphasis on humor. Ebert opined that the film would strike a chord with anyone whose family has experienced a serious illness, regardless of political persuasion.[24]

WBAI Radio, part of the Pacifica Radio Network, reported that Sicko was revitalizing the debate for universal health care within the United States, calling the film "adrenaline for healthcare activists." It named individuals and entities ranging from U.S. Congressman John Conyers, Jr., to the California Nurses Association. It reported that the latter "began traveling the country to leaflet moviegoers as Sicko opens in theaters to support a 'single-payer' health care system."[25]

John Stossel of ABC's 20/20 wrote an article in the Wall Street Journal on September 13, 2007 entitled "Sick Sob Stories", that claimed Julie Pierce's husband, Tracy, featured in Sicko, would not have been saved by the bone marrow transplant denied by his insurer, arguing that the history of treatment of cancer patients with bone-marrow transplants has shown it to be unreliable, citing a 1999 report by the American Society of Clinical Oncology showing it to be ineffective. Stossel also questioned whether this treatment would have been given in a socialized system, citing rationing long waiting lists in Canada and Britain.[26] Julie Pierce claimed Stossel never contacted her or her husband's doctors, and that the insurer denied other treatments as well. Pierce argued that Stossel's statements were based on outdated studies on breast cancer, not kidney cancer, which is what her husband had, and that this became a last option only after their insurer repeatedly denied other treatments, citing doctors at the Blood and Marrow Transplant Program at the University of Kansas Hospital who referred to past successes when opining that it could have saved Tracy Pierce. Pierce questioned Stossel's assertion that Tracy would not have received this in a socialized system, arguing that they are performed more frequently in Canada than in the U.S.[27] Stossel, despite conceding that health care in the U.S. is a "mess", disputed Pierce's claim about Canadian transplants, citing The Center for International Blood and Marrow Transplant Research, which reports 16,700 U.S. transplants in 2006 versus 1,520 in Canada, with a 16% greater incidence of transplants per capita. Stossels related testimony from a dozen Canadian medical organizations that indicated it was unlikely to be performed in Canada with any frequency, given the underwhelming results of clinical trials.[28]

In a 20/20 report Stossel provided evidence that typical Cubans citizens receive poor health care, and only richer ones who can pay for the care shown in Sicko receive it. When Moore cited a United Nations report that contradicted this, Stossel pointed out that the U.N. merely repeated what the Cuban government reported, and cited how dictatorships are known to suppress unfavorable information. Stossel also showed testimonials that lower Cuban infant mortality rates are due to the fact that pregnant women are often given abortions if the fetus shows any sign of problems, and infants who die hours after birth are not recorded in mortality rates. When Moore claimed the C.I.A. corroborated his assertions, Stossel responded that the C.I.A. denied this, and that their data contradict Moore's assertion.[29]

In an article published in both The New Yorker and Reason Magazine, Michael C. Moynihan calls the film "touching, naïve and maddeningly mendacious, a clumsy piece of agitprop that will likely have little lasting effect on the health care debate".[30] Yet in another article in the The New Yorker, "Sick and Twisted", Atul Gawande, states "his movie about the American health-care system, Sicko, is a revelation. And what makes this especially odd to say is that the movie brings to light nothing that the media haven’t covered extensively for years."[31]

MTV's Kurt Loder criticized what he perceived as the film's cherry-picked facts, manipulative interviews, and unsubstantiated assertions, such as the assertion that 18,000 people will die each year because of no insurance. While admitting that the U.S. health care system needs reform, Loder criticized Moore’s advocacy of government control, pointing out that many services controlled by the government are not considered efficient by the American public. Loder points to a 2005 documentary, Dead Meat, by Stuart Browning and Blaine Greenberg, which documents long waiting lists for care in Canada. Its subjects include people who became addicted to pain medication they were prescribed while waiting for surgery, who went to other countries for treatment, or who died while on the waiting lists. Loder points to calls for reform in Britain and France due to the same rationing, which Loder says has hurt France's economy. Loder also criticized Moore’s depiction of Cuba, and the human rights violations by its ruling regime. Loder points out that a Cuban doctor was imprisoned in the late 1990’s for criticizing the government for its failure to respond to a viral epidemic, and that when Fidel Castro became ill in 2006, he had a specialist flown in from Spain.[32]

On July 15, 2007, Fox News's Sean Hannity interviewed Stuart Browning, whose film, Uninsured in America,[33] profiles Canadians placed on long waiting lists for care, including a cancer patient who was forced to go to the U.S. to receive an MRI scan to detect his cancer, and a woman who lost her bladder because she was on a three-year waiting list for a device that would've prevented this. Browning criticized Moore for showing Canadians who did not experience long waits for care, to the exclusion of those who did, asserting that the nature of Canada's system is widely known, though not in the U.S.[34]

Michael Hodgberg of the American Spectator called the box office results for Sicko "a bit of a dud" because of Moore's previous box-office track record and "the attendant hype and publicity" surrounding the film, which drew only a fraction of the audience for Moore's previous films.[35] The Weinstein Company stated before Sicko was released that they did not expect the film to do as well as Fahrenheit 9/11.[36]

Rich Lowry, writing in the National Review, accused Moore of distorting the differences between American and Canadian healthcare systems in order to further a "socialist agenda."[37]

[TSara]

Heh...Knocked up more like Knocked OUT!

God I am so freaking tired!

So far medically I've only had to pay $15.00 (That's US dollars mind) for my visit to the GP.

Who by the way didn't do a damn thing for me other than refer me to an OB. Dude didn't even give me a pregnancy test. Worthless visit.No offense Distracted (because I'm sure you are a fine doctor) but I'm not to pleased with the medical profession right now, and I have a very LOW opinion of that field at this time.

I'm not too keen on seeing this OB either as I already see a midwife for my female stuff, but husband is freaked out about this pregnancy and is insisting I see a "real" doctor. I've had some issues in the past with PCOS and miscarriages both of which my midwife is aware of, she also doesn't seem to have a problem with either one. But Tim loves to be difficult, and this pregnancy is no exception it seems.

I so want to tell him "The day you can squeeze a watermelon out the hole the size of a lemon is the day you can dictate to me which doctor I will see" But in the sake of not arguing for now I'll humor him and see the OB for at least one visit. I still plan on seeing my midwife as long as she feels it's ok.


So erm yeah.....no idea how much this is going to cost.....nor do I know how far along I am really. But I'm planing on spending an arm and a leg.

[blacknblue]

If nothing else, it won't hurt to gather as many opinions as possible, and as much information as possible, will it?

[TSara]

I suppose not....I'm just pissed the man seems to think I can't have a say on who I see for this.

I mean, who is the one that will be carrying the child around for the next 9 months. Who is the one who will have to deliver it either naturally or via C-section.

Me.

And if it sounds unreasonable or bitchy when I say I should be the one who decides who I see, than so be it.

He may think he knows what this is like....but he has no clue.

Can you believe he got pissed off at me yesterday because he came home yesterday and dinner wasn't ready. Erm.....I'm home all day either puking or sleeping or strangely enough eating all day while feeling green around the gills....and all you can do is bitch about traffic and why isn't dinner ready, Than he wonders why I'm mad at him and I want him to leave me alone.

Did he ask me how my day was or how I was feeling, No.

He just bitched because he had a rough day and decided to come home and take it out on me, didn't think to ask how I was feeling or doing. Nope because it's all about him.

I don't think he cares either, ever since I told him about this baby, I've gotten nothing but grief from him.

[JadziaKathryn]

Oh dear. I hope he has an attitude adjustment. Soon.

[CX]

Ah, marital bliss...

[Alelou]

Eh, I have no complaints about my OB (and it was just dumb luck that he was the one actually on call the night I went in) but it was the nurse who really delivered me, and I suspect that is often the case. She was practically giving HIM orders. It was a full moon, the place was hopping and he barely made it into the room in time.

[Mitchell]

Congrats TSara & eKayak.

I haven't anything really constructive to add to this wonderful debate on Health care,,, Accept that the Lawyers are probably to blame. Since they have to go an make everything elese they touch so much more freakin difficult.

[Bookworm]

I haven't congratulated you on your happy news yet. So congratulations and lots of prayers that everyhting will go very well.



Then I have to confess that I'm a little bit jealous. I have noticed that everywhere I go I notice these happy mothers with their children and also smiling expecting mothers and I want that too. It's probably because we have always talked that we would like to have couple of kids after I graduate and now I'm very near graduation.

I wont talk that much about general healt care here there are problems and there are good things. But as someone who is from poor family. I was born when my mom was still in university and a poor student and then when I was four my father got seriously ill. My father was a laborant and he was the one that had been suporting our family when my mom was a student. Suddenly my morther was alone with me still a poor student and it took many years for her to get onto her feet So I really appreciate the free healtcare and university studies.

Expecting mothers have here a maternity clinic that is free for everyone. They meet a doctor maybe three times and a maternity clinic nurse about 12 to 15 times. They do ultrasound and other tests, but some of the test are voluntary like some chromosomal tests. Hospital costs 26 euro per day or 52 euro if one wants a family room where the whole family can stay at the hospital with the mother and the new baby. Usually mothers and babies stay for 2-3 days. Then everyone gets a maternity pack. That is also free and there is some basic things for the new baby like clothes and diapers and things like that. Here is a picture of it.


Now I want a baby even more.

[Escriba]

Then everyone gets a maternity pack. That is also free and there is some basic things for the new baby like clothes and diapers and things like that. Here is a picture of it.

I'm speechless. That looks... wonderful

[Alelou]

Awwwww. I'd say it's time to get to work on that little production problem if you can ...

[dialee]

Congratulations T'Sara and eKayak. Babies are simply wonderful. There are no negatives with them except for the stinky poop but that is such a small part. But here speaks the adoring auntie who doesn't have to wake up at 3:am feeding.

[Elessar]

Hey, anyone wanna make a baby?

What an odd advertisement... gotta see those on Craigslist.