Misanthropic's new story - Reflecting To You

[panyasan]

Have I missed a chapter? Since when is Trip moving on with Mu'Pol?

I do not believe that it is the intent of Trip or the author to start a new relationship, but when a guy is spending all his free time with a women, doing NP with her (and seems more concerned about her backpain and her wellfare then other persons in his life) and then inviting her to do more things together like meditation, he is at least giving the IMPRESSION of moving on.
Secondly, for me, Trip and T'pol love each other and for me it is clear that T'pol loves him very deeply, but that cultural/political/historical barriers are in the way. T'pol is not out there to hurt Trip. She helped him grieve about his sister, so why should she not helping him grieving their child? I know the bond is working on a negative level, but there most be ways to stop or lessen that effect and let the bond be a more positive help in the grieving process. Looking from that POV, the characters seem to be a bit out of character and that is probably one of the reasons I am less enthousiastic about this fic.

[Asso]

Honestly: well said!

[Escriba]

I do not believe that it is the intent of Trip or the author to start a new relationship, but when a guy is spending all his free time with a women, doing NP with her (and seems more concerned about her backpain and her wellfare then other persons in his life) and then inviting her to do more things together like meditation, he is at least giving the IMPRESSION of moving on.
Secondly, for me, Trip and T'pol love each other and for me it is clear that T'pol loves him very deeply, but that cultural/political/historical barriers are in the way. T'pol is not out there to hurt Trip. She helped him grieve about his sister, so why should she not helping him grieving their child? I know the bond is working on a negative level, but there most be ways to stop or lessen that effect and let the bond be a more positive help in the grieving process. Looking from that POV, the characters seem to be a bit out of character and that is probably one of the reasons I am less enthousiastic about this fic.

I see your point, but don't forget Trip is really a lost case of "helping and worrying for the ones who treat me like crap" syndrome. He was very determined to help RU T'Pol when she didn't want his help (3rd season), but he was less enthusiast when she tried to seek his help in fourth season.

Or maybe it's just how I see it

Anyway, I like the story so far

[Alelou]

(Scratches head.) When did she try to seek his help in the fourth season? He offered it, and she refused it.

[Escriba]

Errr... well... I meant after her marriage, when she tried to have a friendly relationship with him again ("Borderland".) It's when she pushed him away again when he tried really hard to help her.

[Alelou]

Well, she was married. Trip wasn't going to go there, but T'Pol had already broken all her rules just to be with him in the first place so it probably wouldn't have been as much of a moral hurdle to her.

We do need a scorecard to follow these two. Pushes away/Pursuits for each episode.

[Asso]

Damn stubborn of a Vulcan female! But when will she learn?

[dialee]

Panyasan

She helped him grieve about his sister, so why should she not helping him grieving their child?

I think she could help him with his sister because the pain was one level removed. But with the loss of her baby also, she herself was feeling the pain also and therefore could not fight/accept both her own and his. She thinks she needs to do it for both of them, not realizing that a burden shared is halved.

Also, growing up Vulcan, she would have been taught to fight and suppress the pain, not let it out as in sharing and dealing with it. Sometimes one should let the emotions flow through the body and out the soles of the feet.

[Asso]

Oh Boys!
What a bad life for poor Vulcans!

[panyasan]

Panyasan

She helped him grieve about his sister, so why should she not helping him grieving their child?

I think she could help him with his sister because the pain was one level removed. But with the loss of her baby also, she herself was feeling the pain also and therefore could not fight/accept both her own and his. She thinks she needs to do it for both of them, not realizing that a burden shared is halved.

Also, growing up Vulcan, she would have been taught to fight and suppress the pain, not let it out as in sharing and dealing with it. Sometimes one should let the emotions flow through the body and out the soles of the feet.

Mmm...I don't know. When I think of Vulcans, I always think about the one episode of TNG where a Betazoid can not handle to be empathic, because it is too much overwelming. I think Vulcans have strong emotions and to be not consumed by it, they try to control it.
But still, I always get the sense that Vulcans, like all persons, have a need to connect and share their inner being. In fact, without connections with others, sharing, societies would not be possible. In combination with the fact that a bond is formed between husband and wifes (and to a extent their childern) and their empathic abilities, emotions like affection and sharing of inner feelings are shared with very closed ones, like husband and wifes and parents and childern. I think Tovuk of VOY is a good example of this. Also we see that bonds between childern and parents stay strong, but not as strong as in the early years. (Remember T'les remark I am her mother (I know..) to Trip or the fact that T'pol knew about her daughter being hers (the I am Vulcan-remark).
Combined with the fact that the only one who really can understand what it is like to lose a child - in spite of lots of people sympathies - is the other parent, so for me it does not make sense that the bond is used so negatively in the grieving process.

[Asso]

You are right.
In fact, is it not a bond the connection that exists between mother and son, between father and son, between wife and husband?
What differentiates Humans from Vulcans, if not a different attitude?
So... why doesn't T'Pol grieve with Trip, and have to refuse to share her pain?

[dialee]

Panyasan, Asso:

That's right! You both make my point. Sentient beings as we know it need to be connected to others, to know that we are not alone and sometimes closer relationships as in families, husbands and wives, parents and children. That is why T'Pol in Misanthrop's T'Pol, so far in the story, is so foolish in pushing Trip away. She is trying to suppress the pain herself as she was taught for Vulcans in this era. Tuvok is a Vulcan in the 23rd or 24th century, nearly 200-300 in the future after the discovery of the Kir'Shara. That is a whole cycle generation afterwards since Vulcan lifespan is approximately 200 years. Prior to Kir'Shara, Vulcans had not "bond" with their mates or children for at least 2000 years.

Re: the difference between helping Trip's pain with his sister and their daughter. What I meant was that, she can sympathize and to some small degree empathize with Trip but the pain was not in herself to begin with as with their daughter.

[Reanok]

When it comes to pain and Grief people make mistakes I think T'Pol doesn't know how to deal very well with the grief of her mother's death or baby Elizabeth's very well. . It seems when her emotions are about to overtake her,she pushes Trip away when she needs him the most/ In Daedalus Trip tried to get her discuss T'Les death and she shut him out once again to study ther Kir' shara . She admits to Phlox she was more uncertain about her Vulcan beliefs after everything that happened to her. Her mother's death & after all she's been through it would be hard to sort all these things out by herself. Having the bond and both them having such intense grief would be overwhelming to both of them.

[Asso]

Reanok , I think you took a very important point.
T'Pol's fascination, in my mind, is her vulnerability. She doesn't know how she have to behave! She! A Vulcan!
That's her beauty!
But...watch it!
Things mustn't carry too far.
The risk is that fascination could turn into disgust!

[dialee]

Asso:

Well, you wouldn't the first one to lose patience with her. A lot of readers lost patience with her at the beginning of this story.

And you are right. Let's hope T'Pol doesn't turn into the kind of person who is not happy unless they are miserable.