Expectations for T'Pol

[Escriba]

Yes, you're right, but doesn't "pon farr" means that she has to come back and marry or something? Or it's just "mate" and the marrying thing comes later? I'm a little confused about that.

And of course Trip is not a Don Juan. We know that. What's less sure is if T'Pol (also known as "Miss Give Me Facts To Discredit Mr Tucker") knows it. What she knows is:

- He became very friendly with this Ah'len (who has this wonderful idea of getting unkown people pregnant, but forgive me, this is a rant for another day.)

- He was babbling and chatting about that "blonde chick from Oasis" (thanks CX ) T'Pol doesn't exactly know if something happenned.

- And there is the Umbearable Princess. And yes, maybe she kissed him first, but T'Pol didn't see it. What she saw were the consequences.

- She doesn't know Natalie broke his heart. Trip didn't talk much about her and I'm sure he didn't talk of her with T'Pol.

And then there is the little detail that Trip confesses in "Breaking the Ice": that he had three failed relationship and he isn't the best giving advices about them. Translation for dense T'Pol: he can't mantain a serious relationship.

Why couldn't Trip fall in love with a good and understanding woman, I wonder?

[Asso]

Actually, it is not clear. It was stated that it wasn't time for her to go through Pon Farr yet. That doesn't mean that she had never gone through it before. Nor did it necessarily mean that she was a virgin, since she obviously was not in Pon Farr when she had sex with Trip.

Okay, Okay! But, please, don't take away my romantic dream with your clever and fussy examination!

[Alelou]

Well, maybe it is a guy/girl thing. Trip is not a hopeless slut by human standards, but by Vulcan standards? T'Pol always assumes the worst of him. It's no wonder she swung into action quickly when she found out he was giving Amanda NP.

Don't you remember what Kov thought about human sexuality? Even if T'Pol knows much better, I don't think she knows completely better. At one point early on she tells Phlox humans are too immature for relationships.

Even if many humans marry for life, at least half in this country don't. And even if these two got together, I could see Trip getting frustrated and wanting out eventually. It's not like she's ever going to be Oh Honey My Life Revolves Around You, Let Me Give You a Hug. I bet it would almost always end up being on her terms. He's patient, and he's smitten, but he's not stupid, and smitten-ness wears off.

Of course I PREFER to think they'd find a way to live happily ever after, but I wouldn't put money on it.

I think Trip could fall in love with a sweet and understanding woman, and probably would given the opportunity -- especially if for some reason sweet and understanding woman needed some help -- but he's not really looking for anything serious right now. He just accidentally lands in something serious.

[Asso]

He just accidentally lands in something serious.

And isn't it happening so always?
Ah, Destiny!

[Pitseleh]

T'Pol is a walking contradiction (thanks to the writers, of course). At first, she seemed way too Vulcan--too stiff, too rigid, too inflexible; some people thought that throwing her out an airlock wouldn't be a bad idea. Perhaps this stiffness and rigidness and whole thing was a behavior she adopted to deal with her overly-emotional nature, sort of like a mask. T'Les said it later on: T'Pol had always had trouble dealing with her emotions. People who adopt a certain behavior to compensate for something else tend to break under the most unusual circumstances. I loathe what happened in Fusion, but T'Pol was curious and maybe she actually saw it as a way to deal with her "excess of emotions". She took a chance, and it went really wrong. And she has to suffer the consequences (nevermind that the writers decided to simply ignore the Pan'Ar until it was convenient to bring it up again). I fail to see the point of The Seventh. That episode is pure character assasination. Did we really need T'Pol to be a former spy who had a break down? Did it ever come up again with any relevance after that anyway? I think the writers never quite knew what they were doing with T'Pol. More often than not, they dismissed continuity or committed character assasination attempt. They call off her engagement on Breaking the Ice, and then conveniently bring it up again in Home for angst-sake. They ignore her Pan'Ar, and the give her an addiction to break her control or give her emotions (nevermind that she already had emotions or that her control was affected by the syndrome). She will act with mild-to-rampant jealousy whenever Trip gets involved with another female (from Unexpected to Harbinger), but will do next to nothing when she has him and is about to lose him.

The bond was the solution to many of our 'shipper problems. Why didn't Trip just go away after all the crap he had to put up with? The bond kept him there. Even if his Human common sense made him do certain stuff like attempting to distance himself in The Augments, he kept hanging around because of the bond. Even if T'Pol asked him to back off in Daedalus, the bond kept him around and even protective, as we saw in the Romulan arc. And even when he decided that it had been too much, the bond flared up and intensified the connection. So, bless the freaking bond. It kept our 'ship together.

[Asso]

Excellent!
I cannot add a sole word!

[Alelou]

Yes, Pitseleh, well put.

[Navigator]

I think the writers never quite knew what they were doing with T'Pol. More often than not, they dismissed continuity or committed character assassination attempt

This is the absolute truth and said very kindly. I have read this whole thread and it is somewhat depressing. The people who write and contribute to this board do a far, far better job than the series writers did. The characters described in the stories published here are thinking, caring individuals with a culture on both sides. The characters as the series portrayed them were almost caricatures by the time they were done. You had a Captain who made Queeg look good, an XO who was the Vulcan version of bipolar and a redneck, boat-motor repairing ChEng. I mean Good Grief! Even the Second lead of the series called the finale' "f------ appalling". Frankly, they should have probably put her in a room and let her write some of the episodes. She was after all something of an enthusiast.

I think the efforts by those writers to take the characters as "raw material" and run with them are the most successful. Their past flaws can be acknowledged but don't dwell on them. Acknowledge the relationship had a rocky start and then build on it. Successful examples of those efforts include, but are not limited to, Rigil's Endeavour, CX's Foundation and Distracted & BNB's Leterian.

Analyzing the whys of some of this only serves to disappoint. Take the characters and run with 'em. They're good people and Vuhlkannsu.

My opinion.

BTW, if you want to see a pretty well written, emerging TnT like relationship, look at "Life" on NBC.

[CX]

And even if these two got together, I could see Trip getting frustrated and wanting out eventually. It's not like she's ever going to be Oh Honey My Life Revolves Around You, Let Me Give You a Hug.

Trip doesn't strike me as the type who'd be into that. Why else would he fall for a fellow professional? Just because she was hot? It takes a lot more than that - there was this one female cadet in my detachment I thought was just gorgeous, but she had a horrible personality and I hated her, and it was pretty mutual as far as that went.

[blacknblue]

As a 30 year veteran of not killing each other, I offer the opinion that a l9to of males aren't looking for a woman whose world revolves around us. That gets boring. We want someone to talk to, and work with, and play with. A companion and partner. An equal. Somebody that is fun to argue with.

[JadziaKathryn]

I mean Good Grief! Even the Second lead of the series called the finale' "f------ appalling". Frankly, they should have probably put her in a room and let her write some of the episodes. She was after all something of an enthusiast.

John Billingsley called it "dramatically flaccid and somewhat arbitrary," which is less perhaps too mild, but the idea of having the cast participate is a good one. It certainly couldn't have hurt! Maybe Anthony Montgomery could've worked in a meaningful plot for Travis, which would've been the first since, what, season two? I wish we knew what Jolene Blalock had to say about the idiotic Trellium-D idea.

As a 30 year veteran of not killing each other, I offer the opinion that a l9to of males aren't looking for a woman whose world revolves around us. That gets boring. We want someone to talk to, and work with, and play with. A companion and partner. An equal. Somebody that is fun to argue with.

And that, I think, is what TnT are about!

[CX]

Well, in theory anyway. Sort of like Archer supposedly being a trained diplomat.

[panyasan]

As a 30 year veteran of not killing each other, I offer the opinion that a l9to of males aren't looking for a woman whose world revolves around us. That gets boring. We want someone to talk to, and work with, and play with. A companion and partner. An equal. Somebody that is fun to argue with.

I think a lot of women want that too, I know I do and I think it is the fun of a relationship. I saw the sparks, the potential for that kind of campanion/partner relationship in TnT and my biggest disappointment that show did not take that road, they were more interested in making Archer a sort of very annoying not likeable superhero and we ended up with *the_abomination* (which is one big pro-Archer hologram-add).

Very interesting thread btw. When I first started the read fanfic, I was a little taken back by the negative feelings toward T'pol. I really do not like relationships where one of them - mostly women - are controlling and making the other person miserable, because they can not be them selves. I did not get the feeling that T'pol was the kind of person, out there to make Trip life miserable.

The feeling I got - and the residu we see in TOS - that relationships between Humans and Vulcans have been pretty tense. There were prejudices on both sides. A romance between Humans and Vulcans would be out of question in society. Childern form these relationships are going to be look upon with diguist, that is the first thing T'les says to T'pol when they are discussing her relationship with Trip. Spocks father - who is married with a human female for pete sake - has trouble accepting that his son is partly human.
Vulcans only have one relationship in their life and they know from childhood who that person is. Compared to that humans come across as not really commited to one person. (The fact that Trips tries to comfort T'pol after their visit to Vulcan with the words We did not have a change as Vulcans and humans any way may come across to T'pol that Trip was sceptical of their relationship before. )

T'pol involment with the humans let her to be a outcast among Vulcans. Jugding from her mothers remarks she did not really fit in with Vulcan society in her childhood, always jugded by her emotional display. And at Enterprise T'pol is seen and jugded as Vulcan.

All kind of signs that relationships between humans and Vulcans are not really accepted in the tnt age and T'pol knowing what is like to be an outcast - and maybe not wanting this for her loved ones.

So her love for Trip is a stuggle between her heart and her logic (telling her that Trip is better off with a human female), her heritage and her passion for Vulcan (I think she really loves her people, want the best for Vulcan - like a alliance with Earth).

I think Trip knows this to some extent - and even Archer (remember the compass he is given her?) and it explains his attitude towards her.
To end my little theory, after the bond is discovered and Vulcan physics and Vulcan law on the side of their relationship, it seems that T'pol and Trip have every right to be together from a Vulcan POV (at least if you are open minded).

Just my little theory - which has lope holes of course and I had some trouble putting at in words, but hopefully it comes across what I wanted to say.

[Escriba]

We understand you panyasan (trying to explain yourself in other language is always difficult )

Maybe this is a little unrelated, but I was toying with "Character Pro 5" (sometimes I do that) and T'Pol seems to be more The Revolutionary type than The Analyst type, which surprised me. I explain myself, for the Revolutionary we have this General personality:

"T'Pol is a perfectionist, a nitpicker and has to be right. Always. She has very definite feelings regarding what's right and wrong and holds herself to it, expecting others to do the same. Self-control and repressing anger is her modus operandi. She generally feels that if she has to abide by the rules, why doesn't everyone else? This can result in repressed anger and self-righteousness. Very concerned with doing things the "right way," she tends to focus less on the big problems of the world and more on the small ones. Details are very important to her, working out every contingency so everything will "work out right." She will plan things to such detail that other characters may think she has some serious problems. That's not how she sees it. This is the way things should be: under control and stable. Generally, T'Pol needs to relax. But, if she gets talked into trying to relax, it's usually a failure. She's stiff and uncomfortable."

For the question of How this character acts when she's under pressure we have this answer: "When she's under pressure, she gets angry, feeling misunderstood and alone. When she's relaxed and secure, she becomes less controlled by rules, living more in the moment, becoming more comfortable with letting life happen."

The controversy begans in the background cathegory. For The Revolutionary we have: "She was raised in an unstable household where at least her protective father figure, and possibly the mother figure, were undependable, creating an unstable environment. Perhaps she was raised by a single parent who made a lot of mistakes, causing trouble and embarrassment for the child. T'Pol never connected with the protective figure and, as a result, formed a need for stability by concentrating on the perfection of detail. In the process, she aligned herself with the rules to contain her anxiety. As an adult, she lives in her own world. No one else understands her or has ever really understood her. She is alone in this condition but stubbornly holds onto the idea that this is the right way to be. T'Pol knows loneliness." For The Analyst we have: "T'Pol found it hard to fit into the family she was given. The rest of the family had skills or tasks they were concentrating on and this child, most probably, was neglected. Now as an adult, T'Pol finds herself neglecting all those people around her to focus on her skills or tasks. This subtype is more outgoing, more "in the world," than the other subtype but, ironically, has always had trouble with relationships, always feeling like an outsider."

And the work area is troublesome too. The Revolutionary: "At work, T'Pol is concerned with right and wrong. She can be catty and judgmental with coworkers. She will also usually stand up against authority for those she feels have been wrongs. She's attracted to jobs that she feels betters the world." The Analyst: "At work, T'Pol is wise, perceptive and analytic, seeing information and data as the lifeblood of the business. She's able to synthesize information to truly make informed decisions. She's attracted to work where data is important."

Her dialogue style, The Revolutionary: "T'Pol is a perfectionist, so she speaks correct English and expects others to do the same. She is very opinionated, likely to offer quick opinions as to what's best, "Put on this tie." "You're wearing that?" "Take this road." She seeks concrete answers to questions, gray areas really annoy her. She is likely to cut right to the chase and offer opinions without being asked. Also, her repressed anger can surface as resentment. She generally feels that good people don't get angry." The Analyst: "T'Pol may begin the story by being annoyingly analytic. A kind of robot. She could be almost impossible to connect with emotionally, always concerned with why things are happening the way they are. She concentrates on physical data, so, she may mention items or situations in the environment and what she thinks it means. The great thing about T'Pol is that she keeps secrets secret better than any other type - no one can approach her vault of secrets - not even those closest to her."

Now, about her relationships... For Trip and T'Pol when she is The Revolutionary type (taking into acccount that Trip is The Cheerleader type; yes, I know ): "T'Pol and Trip are quite different personalities. T'Pol can see Trip as irresponsible and inconsiderate and can become very judgmental. In turn, Trip can rebel against the criticism, trivializing T'Pol' s legitimate concerns, telling T'Pol to lighten up. This can escalate into explosive outbursts by Trip and silent resentment on the part of T'Pol." When she's The Analyst: "T'Pol appreciates Trip's positive outgoing personality. And Trip enjoys the thoughtfulness and independence of T'Pol. But T'Pol can see Trip as wanting too much attention. Trip can see T'Pol as dampening enthusiasm and becoming unavailable. Although both types get angry in bursts, they tend to back off quickly to avoid negative or painful feelings."
I have my doubts with this one.

And as for the Story Arc (presuming that everything will turn out alright for T'Pol,) if she is The Revolutionary: "She exercises too much control over her feelings and this causes problems for herself and others. T'Pol learns that releasing this control is the key to happiness and success in whatever mission she is involved with. Relaxing this control will allow her to start living life on its own terms. She learns that perfection is not necessary for stability or happiness, that what she has and who she is, is good enough after all." If she's The Analyst: "T'Pol is the subtype that's most interactive with the world but still can't seem to figure out how other humans think. She is less likely to be outwardly friendly, choosing to analyze behavior instead. However, T'Pol changes when she connects to another person and learns to put aside the analytic mind-set. She experiences life with this other, less-analytic person and discovers how not to ruin the experience with thoughts of how it all works. She releases thought and learns to feel the world around her. She then begins to give, so energy flows outward instead of inward."

I don't know ... What do you think?

[panyasan]

Difficult to have a quick response. My first impression is, T'pol is a combination of both.
She is okay with her analytical side, has more problem accepting her revoltionary side, also because she comes from a high ranking family. Most arranged relationships are between two parties of the same rank and Koss father is minister. So T'pols family most be also something like a minister family. I am also torn about the family background. Family seems to be pretty solid, but I think her fathers death made a very great impression in her life, maybe also causing a rift between T'pol and her mother. (She has experience with grieve and you do not hear most about her Mom till Home).
BTW, both personalities have some pro and cons, which she can use to good for her life or not.