Which blade?

[Escriba]

I'm full of stupid existential doubts lately I'm trying to draw a weapon that should be like a pike, it has to be long to use it from the ground to dismount horsemen but not too long (not as long as a sarissa anyway), because it has to serve to use it as a martial art weapon, like a guandao

So, what blade does look better for that purpose?

the different examples

The guy is supposed to be the one to brandish it.

[Asso]

This "Guandao" seems a Lirpa".

[Distracted]

What do you want him to do with it? The top three are cutting and slicing blades, almost like battle axes with their larger cutting surfaces. The bottom three are pikes... get 'em and let 'em dangle sort of stabbing blades. See the reverse curves like fishhooks? They're to keep the horse or person that got stabbed from getting off the blade, so they can't fight. Kinda leaves the pikeman with no weapon, though, once that happens. Both can be used for one on one combat with mounted or unmounted opponents with swords, but depending on the length of the polearm they might be difficult to use against multiple opponents. They're pretty unidirectional, and once just one opponent gets under your guard, you're toast unless you drop it and go for a sword or a knife. Longer polearms were traditionally used as a stationary front line against charging cavalry. Sort of like a movable barricade. Pikemen would plant the butts of their weapons against the ground and wait for the horses to charge into them while standing behind a row of shieldmen who's main job was to keep the pikemen from getting skewered by holding up these huge shields side by side. Then the bowmen behind the shieldmen would pick off the cavalry with arrows. Once cavalry broke through the shield wall, that's when the footsoldiers would go in. So historically if this guy is the equivalent of a pikeman, he's had a lot of training in standing fast and bracing for impact, and less training in actually using his weapon in one-on-one combat. Of course, you could always hypothesize something completely different for an alien culture, but warfare is warfare, and certain things just work better. I personally would rather wield a sword than a polearm.

I like your guy's lamellar armor, though. My kids have some like that.

Edit: I just realized how weird the above sounds. He's some links to explain myself. This is what my family does on weekends.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hQjh8EQ5h40 This one has a good example of traditional use of pikemen in the "skirmish" segment.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VmfgBzLRczc&feature=related Here's an example of greatsword vs polearm one-on-one.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4_IdvWwwTcA&feature=related and http://youtube.com/watch?v=Yix5uyhUolY&feature=related Practical Polearm lessons!

[Escriba]

Distracted, you're so awesomely useful!

Yes, yes, I understand your point, that was exactly my dilemma. I was trying to imagine an army without cavalry, only infantry, that has to face an army with infantry and cavalry. I mean, you need weapons to face it, don't you? Besides, as this guy proves, you don't have a heavy armor (because you live in a desert; I took this idea from the Muslims' warriors in the Crusades, who were mostly less armored than Christians), so you need a weapon that prevents people of being near you. On the other hand, your men are best trained and have probably more experience than your enemy's and you fight in your territory.

What is better: a compact unit with long spears in front and shorter weapons in the back, or something like, I don't know, Vikings berserks, in a veeery loose formation?

Archery isn't a problem. There is no use of it (something not so surprising. Except the very famous English bowmen, with their long bow, archery wasn't very prevalent in Western Europe's warfare.)

[Distracted]

Well, better organized, closely grouped formations generally work better. In the SCA, Roman re-enactors use phalanx formations with overlapping shields, with polearms protruding above and between if they have any, but most shieldsmen bear swords because polearms are virtually impossible to wield one handed. There are a couple of battle photos on this page showing the technique.

http://www.romanempire.net/romepage/ArtGallery/battle_pics_2007.htm

[Linda]

Cool. I wonder if any of the efforts of these reinactment groups (from any historical period!) have made historians rethink how things were REALLY done back then, because the reinactment groups showed what was possible, practical, and what was not.

[hth2k]

Check out the halberd or a naginada.

halberd;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberd

The naginada is a japanese pole arm that typically used a blade much like a Katana but curved like a shallow scimitar on a pole. It was used by foot troops against cavalry. The tip is not clipped like a katana.

I have a naginada blade that is 27" long and curved like a scimitar but less so. The sagita is perhaps an inch along the back of the blade. It has been converted for use as a sword. The Japanese used them some 600 years ago.

HtH

[Escriba]

Mmmm... interesting... Thanks, hth2k (and you had a naginada, WOW.)

Because, you know, the thing is I can't use shields (or I was hoping not to), so the Roman formations are cool but I don't know how much of it I can use.

I wonder if any of the efforts of these reinactment groups (from any historical period!) have made historians rethink how things were REALLY done back then, because the reinactment groups showed what was possible, practical, and what was not.

Yeah, like the teacher that forced his students to run naked to prove that Greek couldn't run totally naked

[Alelou]

How can a creature that evolved before it learned how to sew NOT be able to run totally naked?

Not to say there wouldn't be a lot of flopping around, but I mean ... that just makes no sense. Unless our ability to contrive support garments and shoes evolved at the same pace.

Not to say this proves anything about the Greeks of the early Olympics, because they could certainly sew and do leatherwork.

(I read an article recently that said ANY shoes, even finely-engineered running shoes, screw up our our bodies' natural alignment.)

[Asso]

Gladius?
I know it is not what you asked, but it is very protean and useful in many circumstances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladius

[Escriba]

How can a creature that evolved before it learned how to sew NOT be able to run totally naked?

I didn't say he was right, just that when proving things you can go too far

Gladius?
I know it is not what you asked, but it is very protean and useful in many circumstances.

Don't worry, a gladius is a good sword for the other army

[blacknblue]

What is wrong with a boar spear? A long spear with a long leaf shaped blade that is equipped with a short crossbar just behind the blade. The crossbar prevents an enemy (or prey) from forcing itself up the shaft to reach you. the spear can be used for thrusting, the long blade allows the weapon to be used for slashing, and in close combat the long shaft allows the weapon to serve as a quarterstaff.

[CX]

Well, better organized, closely grouped formations generally work better. In the SCA, Roman re-enactors use phalanx formations with overlapping shields, with polearms protruding above and between if they have any, but most shieldsmen bear swords because polearms are virtually impossible to wield one handed. There are a couple of battle photos on this page showing the technique.

http://www.romanempire.net/romepage/ArtGallery/battle_pics_2007.htm

Maniples, not phalanx. The Romans proved just how outdated the phalanx was when they conquered Greece.

[Elessar]

I'd say D.

It has a sharp point to accomplish the task of dismount, and a bladed edge to act as a martial arts weapon. I think in the end you're going to have to decide on a balance of which task is more important for the blade to be better suited to. I'd say D is best suited for dismount and marginally well suited for martial combat because it has a blade and a tip. The others with the curly point might work better for disembowling in single combat but all of the protrusions on them would keep the spear point from penetrating horseman as far and thus might detract from its usefulness at dismounting.

Although now that I look at it, F might not be so bad either.

[Escriba]

Thanks for the vote, Elessar (and the others for their opinion, of course.)

F is the blade of a real guisarme, so I know it's useful against cavalry because it can "hook" the horseman. But, D, that's true, might be better for martial-arts purposes.

OK, a blade between the two of them. I'll think something.