Spock and T'Pol conjectures

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Re: Spock and T'Pol conjectures

Postby Elessar » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:59 am

Alelou wrote:Well, I don't, and I certainly include myself in that. As fanfic writers we write what we feel like, focusing on our favorite characters to our heart's content, without regard to the rigors of the commercial teleplay format, the need to keep a general audience as well as a maniacal fan base relatively happy, and budget and time constraints we can't even imagine.

It's essentially comparing apples and oranges to compare writing fanfic to scripting Enterprise. Even Foundations would have to be considered a failure by TV standards, because it obviously can't handle regular production deadlines.

Fanfic is fun. Sometimes it's even beautiful, sometimes it crosses over into creating new characters and truly original stories. But when you come right down to it, it's still just fanfic -- a highly-derivative, highly addictive pastime that exists solely to give pleasure (or relief) to fans.


After sampling other fandoms, I don't think I agree. I don't think I'm just partial to this fandom because I wasn't always a part of it, and I remember reading XF and Enterprise fanfic back in the HoT day, and thinking HoT was way better. Since then I've read some House, Lost, Firefly, TNG, Voyager, BSG, even Enterprise fanfic on other sites (not including the sites of people also here, I'm talking non-HoT/non-TriS authors) and there is actually a very distinct literary talent gap.

I agree with CX for not just that reason, but also because if you walk candid interviews with television screenwriters and scriptwriters, they'll admit that they can't always gun for real quality because of the nature of the television medium. I saw a special on G4 just yesterday about Lost, and Damon Lindelof, one of the showrunners, was talking about how television is not in the business of writing one story that has a definite start and stopping point, it's in the business of keeping a show on television as long as possible, which means a compromise in writing and storytelling quailty, because you can't aim for an endgame with a definite path from start to finish since you don't know when the finish is.

Fanfic, like Trek novels, are totally different. It goes where we want it to. There are a handful of writers here and from HoT that didn't just write these one-track fluff stories that ARE, yes, for fun. There are a handful of authors that write full-fledged, full-range stories that span drama, action, romance, comedy, and tragedy. Those are people who can write "better" than we saw on TV, I think.

Besides, marketing always poisons creative enterprise. Just watch The TV Set :lol:


...or the series of Kevin Smith's movies in chronological order. You'll see a steady decline.
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Re: Spock and T'Pol conjectures

Postby CX » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:03 am

Alelou wrote:It's essentially comparing apples and oranges to compare writing fanfic to scripting Enterprise. Even Foundations would have to be considered a failure by TV standards, because it obviously can't handle regular production deadlines.

Only because we have no budget and a limited, volunteer-only staff.

But again, I have to disagree, it's about the storytelling, and Enterprise, like Voyager before it, lacked good storytelling. Ira Behr fought for the integrity of DS9 and got the studio to back off plenty of times. He and the people working for him made a good show because they gave a rat's ass and wouldn't give up on the vision they had for their series. They even had pretty damn good multi-episode story arcs without planning everything out in advance the way JMS did.

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Re: Spock and T'Pol conjectures

Postby Elessar » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:06 am

CX wrote:
Alelou wrote:It's essentially comparing apples and oranges to compare writing fanfic to scripting Enterprise. Even Foundations would have to be considered a failure by TV standards, because it obviously can't handle regular production deadlines.

Only because we have no budget and a limited, volunteer-only staff.

But again, I have to disagree, it's about the storytelling, and Enterprise, like Voyager before it, lacked good storytelling. Ira Behr fought for the integrity of DS9 and got the studio to back off plenty of times. He and the people working for him made a good show because they gave a rat's ass and wouldn't give up on the vision they had for their series. They even had pretty damn good multi-episode story arcs without planning everything out in advance the way JMS did.



Hell yeah, DS9 fought the Man, well. Most of their episodes were good, solid story-telling. I remember hearing from Nana Visitor, however, when I went to my first con, that when they first had Mirror-Kira on the show and she had these lesbian tendencies towards her RU self, they meant it to be this ultimate expression of narcissism, but the ratings and the response they got from the idea of this lez action goin on made the network execs salivate, and every time afterwards that they did an MU episode, it was rife with girl-on-girl action, even among MU-Dax and MU-Kira, but that totally wasn't the creative direction they originally wanted to go.

If Ira Behr had been running Enterprise, I'm pretty sure we'd still be watching it today. That guy knew what he was doing. For one, we might've had an ensemble cast instead of this "Holy Trinity" idea they tried to resurrect from TOS.
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Re: Spock and T'Pol conjectures

Postby CX » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:12 am

I remember hearing about that, but when you stack that up against getting a 2-season long Dominion War vs the 3 episode war the studio wanted, preventing Defiant's destruction in First Contact, and all the other things they were able to successfully tell the studio to sod off about, that's a pretty good record. They even managed to make some pretty good lemonade out of the lemons of the rekindled Klingon/Federation conflict and the addition of Worf that the studio forced on them.

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Re: Spock and T'Pol conjectures

Postby justTripn » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:19 am

I will clarify one thing I said. I haven't read all of you people's work. In particular, I haven't read Zane Grey. And some of the romance is awesome, and something that might be in some sense better than an episode, but it isn't Trek-like. Very few authors capture that feel, which requires adventure, si-fi element, preferably an interesting moral dilemma, drama beyond the matter of will they or won't they, technobabble, and the right balance of gravity and light humorous moments in perfect Star Trek propotions.
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Re: Spock and T'Pol conjectures

Postby CX » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:41 am

ENT didn't do that much either, I hate to say. Not that I agree with your assessment as to what a perfect episode of Trek is either. What you list is more like an idealized stereotype, whereas I would focus more on the story, drama, and character development. One of the things that bugs me about much of TNG is that there is no real character development to speak of. One of the things that bugs me about ENT S4 is that character development was put on hold in lieu of giving us as much TOS fanwank as possible.

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Re: Spock and T'Pol conjectures

Postby Asso » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:17 pm

Alelou, in my country there's a pleasant and funny song.
It is referring to "canzonets". It says: "After all, it's only matter of canzonets". Nothing remarkable, it seems to say.
But it goes on saying: "But everyone sings them", whereas the same thing doesn't happen with many "important" melodies. :D
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Re: Spock and T'Pol conjectures

Postby Alelou » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:03 pm

CX wrote:One of the things that bugs me about ENT S4 is that character development was put on hold in lieu of giving us as much TOS fanwank as possible.


I think I might agree with this. :shock: Other than the Vulcan arc I'm afraid I find those fourth season multi-parters pretty dreary, at least when it comes to deciding what ep I feel like rewatching. I enjoyed the little "ah hah" moments the first time I watched them, but they often seemed to be much more about Romulans and Andorians and Klingons and Soong and TOS than about our guys. I do a lot of fast forwarding. The most egregious case of this was that horrible MU two-parter. Gah!!! I guess you could argue *the_abomination* was an example of that too. You could almost begin to wonder if the writers were detaching themselves emotionally from the characters because they knew it was over -- so we got their separation anxiety playing out in the scripts.
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Re: Spock and T'Pol conjectures

Postby Zane Gray » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:09 pm

CX wrote:
justTripn wrote:Because I Loved Enterprise, I don't think I'm being mean when I say that the only fanfic writers who write stories better than the canon episodes are Rigel Kent or Alelou when they are at they're best. And Alelou was nice enouugh to credit the athors she whose story she was riffing off of.

The vast majority of the authors here write stories better than the canon episodes, even at their worst.


I'll mostly agree with that. Though to be fair, having done both kind of writing (professional and fanfic), fanfic writers have vastly more freedom. They don't have to worry about production budgets and deadlines, the need to conform to the whims of a studio and producers, story constraints based on where future episodes (which may already be written) have gone story-wise, the collaborative writing room process and the need to attract viewers and not offend others. Fanfic, by its very nature, is written for the 1 or 2% of fans who are already died-in-the-wool. All of which gives fanfic writers far more freedom than the staff writers of a show.

When I wrote Differential, I didn't have to worry about including sex in my story, nearly destorying the Enterprise, killing lots of people, creating new family members for T'Pol that we hadn't yet seen and completely changing the direction of the show - I just did it all. I'd never have been able to do half of what I did working in a TV series format.

About the only show I've ever seen that has been 100% fearless in its writing process is the new Battlestar, and I think cable gives them a little more freedom. The idea of taking major beloved characters and suddenly making you see them in completely new ways, or within the middle of a scene, jumping one year later and not backtracking or dream scene-ing that - that's extraordinary. I'd have loved to see Ron Moore's take on Enterprise and these characters. That's a whole other thread topic however.

But I generally agree with you, CX.
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Re: Spock and T'Pol conjectures

Postby Zane Gray » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:19 pm

justTripn wrote:I will clarify one thing I said. I haven't read all of you people's work. In particular, I haven't read Zane Grey.


Well, if you do, here's the order you'd want to do so in...

One Step Back, Two Steps Forward
Sympathies and Symmetries
Time Enough
Differential (start with the prologue) - most are short but this is the really big one
The Early Hours

I still haven't finished the follow-up to Early Hours (called Objects in Motion), though I have started my own Terra Prime follow-up (not set in the same story continuity as my other stories) called Whether You Fall - also still unfinished. All are available here at Triaxian Silk (via Trip/T'Polers).

Keep in mind that all of these stories were written prior to season three and four. Knowing that, I think Differential in particular will surprise you with some of its story twists. I'm not sure what other writer I'd compare my stuff to - I was one of the original members over at Trip/T'Polers, so some of this dates back to 2002. There weren't many stories as 'epic' when I first started writing, but there have been many, many great ones since. It's interesting - my stuff has been around so long that a lot of newer readers haven't seen it. ;)

In any case, I'd be curious to see what you think.

--sorry, back to the original thread topic--
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Re: Spock and T'Pol conjectures

Postby Asso » Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:14 pm

Zane Gray wrote:
justTripn wrote:I will clarify one thing I said. I haven't read all of you people's work. In particular, I haven't read Zane Grey.


Well, if you do, here's the order you'd want to do so in...

One Step Back, Two Steps Forward
Sympathies and Symmetries
Time Enough
Differential (start with the prologue) - most are short but this is the really big one
The Early Hours

I still haven't finished the follow-up to Early Hours (called Objects in Motion), though I have started my own Terra Prime follow-up (not set in the same story continuity as my other stories) called Whether You Fall - also still unfinished. All are available here at Triaxian Silk (via Trip/T'Polers).

Keep in mind that all of these stories were written prior to season three and four. Knowing that, I think Differential in particular will surprise you with some of its story twists. I'm not sure what other writer I'd compare my stuff to - I was one of the original members over at Trip/T'Polers, so some of this dates back to 2002. There weren't many stories as 'epic' when I first started writing, but there have been many, many great ones since. It's interesting - my stuff has been around so long that a lot of newer readers haven't seen it. ;)

In any case, I'd be curious to see what you think.

--sorry, back to the original thread topic--


I have read all your stories. They are unique, for me. All of them. Differential is the best, but The Early Hours is also great. That's the reason because of I miss you and your sequels.
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four


And here is the beginning of the whole story.
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But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.

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Re: Spock and T'Pol conjectures

Postby JadziaKathryn » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:51 am

Asso wrote:Alelou, in my country there's a pleasant and funny song.
It is referring to "canzonets". It says: "After all, it's only matter of canzonets". Nothing remarkable, it seems to say.
But it goes on saying: "But everyone sings them", whereas the same thing doesn't happen with many "important" melodies. :D
This is very interesting. I quite like it, and it makes a lot of sense. Everyone knows "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star," but not many people can sing Verdi operas.

As for fanfic, I must say that there are some people (Rigil, Distracted, blacknblue) who write these long stories that encompass a lot more than my traditional fic. The vast majority of my fics, particularly the ones that are any good, tend to be short - maybe 1,000 - 2,500 words. I enjoy reading both, but it's a completely different ball game.
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Re: Spock and T'Pol conjectures

Postby Escriba » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:45 am

JadziaKathryn wrote:As for fanfic, I must say that there are some people (Rigil, Distracted, blacknblue) who write these long stories that encompass a lot more than my traditional fic. The vast majority of my fics, particularly the ones that are any good, tend to be short - maybe 1,000 - 2,500 words. I enjoy reading both, but it's a completely different ball game.

Well, I love your long story "Z'Val".
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Re: Spock and T'Pol conjectures

Postby WarpGirl » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:55 pm

michelle wrote:
Elessar wrote:The only reason I would disagree with this is b/c originally T'Pau was to be the T'Pau from TOS (also mentioned in TNG) and I don't think they ever intended to say T'Pau and Sarek were related, because there were so many opportunities to do so in both TOS and TNG since the TOS T'Pau officiated his defunked wedding and such. I was just reading on Memory Alpha that they didn't "decide" to make T'Pau THE T'Pau basically just because if they "officially" did, they'd have to pay the original writer loyalties every time they used her name. If that isn't retarded. So basically though, for all creative purposes, it should be treated that she is.


I may very well be mixing up fan fiction and canon here, but I'm sure that during Spock's wedding Kirk mentions to McCoy that he didn't know Spock's family was so ...high ranking... or something like that, in regards to seeing T'Pau officiating the wedding.

I'm for saying she is THE T'Pau too. :)

This is an awful thing to admit since TNG and Vulcans are what I love most about Trek, but I can't ever remember T'Pau being mentioned in it :s. What episode is that?


Your right about T'Pau being related to Sarek, she's his grandmother. It says so at Startrek.com in the little documentary on Pon Farr. I don't mind Spock and T'Pol being from the same clan, but I think distant cousins is good enough. Don't make it a huge deal and constantly reference it.
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Re: Spock and T'Pol conjectures

Postby Elessar » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:27 am

WarpGirl wrote:
michelle wrote:
Elessar wrote:The only reason I would disagree with this is b/c originally T'Pau was to be the T'Pau from TOS (also mentioned in TNG) and I don't think they ever intended to say T'Pau and Sarek were related, because there were so many opportunities to do so in both TOS and TNG since the TOS T'Pau officiated his defunked wedding and such. I was just reading on Memory Alpha that they didn't "decide" to make T'Pau THE T'Pau basically just because if they "officially" did, they'd have to pay the original writer loyalties every time they used her name. If that isn't retarded. So basically though, for all creative purposes, it should be treated that she is.


I may very well be mixing up fan fiction and canon here, but I'm sure that during Spock's wedding Kirk mentions to McCoy that he didn't know Spock's family was so ...high ranking... or something like that, in regards to seeing T'Pau officiating the wedding.

I'm for saying she is THE T'Pau too. :)

This is an awful thing to admit since TNG and Vulcans are what I love most about Trek, but I can't ever remember T'Pau being mentioned in it :s. What episode is that?


Your right about T'Pau being related to Sarek, she's his grandmother. It says so at Startrek.com in the little documentary on Pon Farr.


Yeah they screwed up on that... doesn't make any sense to me.
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