Did we watch a relationship?

[Asso]

[CX]

The whole thing is fantasy. It's just irritating to see something with such great potential get ruined by bad writing,

[Asso]

CX, you know I absolutely agree with you, but - please - don't you think there're many - MANY - explicit demonstrations in the show that Trip and T'Pol are a couple? Sharp and cold scissors have cut the thread, but people tied up again that yarn, which shouldn't have been broken.

[CX]

CX, you know I absolutely agree with you, but - please - don't you think there're many - MANY - explicit demonstrations in the show that Trip and T'Pol are a couple?

No. There are like two or three explicit demonstrations of something that could have lead to them being a couple, and a bunch of little hints here and there. But like I said, pretty much every positive got a negative in order to return them to the status quo, and/or to try to get some angst drama out of it.

[KKGlinka]

There are like two or three explicit demonstrations of something that could have lead to them being a couple, and a bunch of little hints here and there. But like I said, pretty much every positive got a negative in order to return them to the status quo, and/or to try to get some angst drama out of it.

I'd have to agree with this, since I quit watching with "Home" when I finally got sick and tired of yet another "contrived plot device to draw out the wangst" routine. Get off the pot already, y'know? A full blown human/vulcan relationship would have been a great motiff for a show ostensibly about the emergency of such a political alliance. Symbolism and stuff. Instead, it was oh, another reason why they can't... WTF-ever, not listening anymore.

Watching the vaunted "chase" too many times is just as boring, if not more so (due to lack of payoff), than any functional long-term relationship. But, I dunno, sci-fi shows are written by little boys who think that life ends when you get married. *snort* As if. I'll take Mr & Mrs Smith kicking ass together, over that juvenile ignorance, any day of the week.

[leslina]

Watching the vaunted "chase" too many times is just as boring, if not more so (due to lack of payoff), than any functional long-term relationship. But, I dunno, sci-fi shows are written by little boys who think that life ends when you get married. *snort* As if. I'll take Mr & Mrs Smith kicking ass together, over that juvenile ignorance, any day of the week.

Agreed, and I've seen this nauseating pattern in too many fandoms I follow. Very few sci-fi series take the time to write a mature and realistic relationship between two adult characters to my satisfaction. Those that have are Babylon 5 (John and Delen) being one and Firefly (Wash and Zoe) the other. I've heard that Farscape also made an attempt at writing a workable relationship between two adults, but I could never get into that show at the time it aired. Still, kudos to the Farscape folk if they did.

[Elessar]

Watching the vaunted "chase" too many times is just as boring, if not more so (due to lack of payoff), than any functional long-term relationship. But, I dunno, sci-fi shows are written by little boys who think that life ends when you get married. *snort* As if. I'll take Mr & Mrs Smith kicking ass together, over that juvenile ignorance, any day of the week.

Agreed, and I've seen this nauseating pattern in too many fandoms I follow. Very few sci-fi series take the time to write a mature and realistic relationship between two adult characters to my satisfaction. Those that have are Babylon 5 (John and Delen) being one and Firefly (Wash and Zoe) the other. I've heard that Farscape also made an attempt at writing a workable relationship between two adults, but I could never get into that show at the time it aired. Still, kudos to the Farscape folk if they did.

Oh they did big time. I've often said that "the Farscape Model" is how you can do a successful sci-fi ship with the main character - because you can't actually pointe to Firefly as an exact example for how they could have handled Trip and T'Pol because neither Wash and Zoe were THE main character... well, I guess neither was Trip, but I would argue that T'Pol was featured as a co-main character with Archer. I just would, I don't know why. But the main problem is that Star Trek has ALWAYS been of the opinion that you can't feature a mainstay relationship that's stable, they've always thought it wouldn't work, so that's their main issue.

Farscape, though, found a really good balance between some early angst and not going overboard with it. I mean they only got 4 seasons and when you compare the pace of the evolution of the relationship between Trip and T'Pol with between John and Aeryn, it's just no contest, John and Aeryn are in Season 4 where Trip and T'Pol would probably have been with Star Trek's pace by late season 6 or maybe season 7. That's how much better they were at it. Not that I like John and Aeryn more than Trip and T'Pol, but I think they were handled way better.

Ironically, their emotional dynamic is very similar, too. John in Farscape is very much like Trip (to the point of using Southern aphorisms and slang and even having a bit of an upper midwest accent), and Aeryn, while not Vulcan, has the same kind of emotional standoffishness and isolation as T'Pol because she's hardcore career military woman.

[leslina]

Oh they did big time. I've often said that "the Farscape Model" is how you can do a successful sci-fi ship with the main character - because you can't actually pointe to Firefly as an exact example for how they could have handled Trip and T'Pol because neither Wash and Zoe were THE main character... well, I guess neither was Trip, but I would argue that T'Pol was featured as a co-main character with Archer. I just would, I don't know why. But the main problem is that Star Trek has ALWAYS been of the opinion that you can't feature a mainstay relationship that's stable, they've always thought it wouldn't work, so that's their main issue.

Farscape, though, found a really good balance between some early angst and not going overboard with it. I mean they only got 4 seasons and when you compare the pace of the evolution of the relationship between Trip and T'Pol with between John and Aeryn, it's just no contest, John and Aeryn are in Season 4 where Trip and T'Pol would probably have been with Star Trek's pace by late season 6 or maybe season 7. That's how much better they were at it. Not that I like John and Aeryn more than Trip and T'Pol, but I think they were handled way better.

Ironically, their emotional dynamic is very similar, too. John in Farscape is very much like Trip (to the point of using Southern aphorisms and slang and even having a bit of an upper midwest accent), and Aeryn, while not Vulcan, has the same kind of emotional standoffishness and isolation as T'Pol because she's hardcore career military woman.

Fascinating. Perhaps I'll shall invest in this DVD series next.

[Elessar]

I definitely recommend it. It's definitely a bit... *different* from most sci fi. It's got kind of a fantasy element in it as well as, I think, far more adult and somewhat sophisticated interplay between characters.

[Asso]

CX, you know I absolutely agree with you, but - please - don't you think there're many - MANY - explicit demonstrations in the show that Trip and T'Pol are a couple?

No. There are like two or three explicit demonstrations of something that could have lead to them being a couple, and a bunch of little hints here and there. But like I said, pretty much every positive got a negative in order to return them to the status quo, and/or to try to get some angst drama out of it.

Excuse me: these are byzantinisms, in my mind.
It isn't necessary to shout something from the rooftops so as to demonstrate that this something is true.
And then don't forget that the show has been interrupted abruptly, in a bad way.
You know I think that too much - TOO MUCH - gratuitous angst was displayed in season four, and I cannot forgive this immeasurable stupidity.
But remember: One unique and small kiss can be worther than a deafening scream.

[Pitseleh]

Regarding the Farscape way of handling a 'ship (you would probably enjoy it a lot, leslina) I heard Ben Browder actually comment that they had decided to have John and Aeryn get together as early as possible so they could get the whole will they/won't they stuff over with. Sure, there were problems and angst, but I don't think we ever doubted they were going to end up together.

I wonder if they'd ever do something like that in a Trek show. "Look, this is our couple in the show and we're stickin' to it." I just don't see that happening...

[CX]

Unfortunately, most of the people who have been running the show, not to mention the studio execs, have a problem with doing anything that would change the status quo. TNG was heavily episodic, and it as very successful, so since then the studio especially has always tried to strong arm the people making the show to follow the same formula, because it worked for them back in the early '90s. Now as far as 'ships went in TNG, they never really did anything. They'd give these little hints every now and again to basically keep people happy and when it was convenient, and even then it never kept Riker or Troi, or Picard, or Crusher from getting it on with anyone in a insta-love romance of the week, even though they kept hinting at Riker/Troi and Picard/Crusher. So ever since then, that's basically how Trek has ever done it.

[blacknblue]

They need to grasp the concept that the reason people lost interest wasn't lack of interest in the Star trek universe. The reason was changing cultural demographics. Something Hollywood has never been good at adapting to. Hence the fact that network viewership is *still* falling, and has been for years, and yet they haven't figured out why or how to stop it.

[Alelou]

People lost interest because they couldn't find the show and if they'd burned out on Voyager and DS9 they weren't that eager to go looking. Even if I could find it, and I did try a bit when it first came on, I was always busy tucking my kid into bed. Enterprise had stretches of bad episodes (like the others did too) but it probably would have done great if it had come out when Voyager or DS9 did -- they would have done the same math and stuck with it. But UPN was a disastrous experiment, and the math didn't work anymore.

Speaking of Enterprise, where the heck is it? Can you even watch it anywhere in this country at the moment? I don't see it running on scifi anymore.

[justTripn]

I am late to this conversation, so I will say I really like Elian's comment about the 3 out of 4, including sex and a "connection". I like Elessar and Asso's point that they gave us enouph little interspersed details to run off wild with it, if we so desired. (Viewers were invited to fill in the blanks.) And of course we can just go AU, running off on a tangent, feuled by that strong "connection" we saw on screen.

I also agree with those praising the Farscape John and Aeryn relationship. Yes, it was "better" in many ways than the onscreen "Trip 'n T'Pol" relationship.