Did we watch a relationship?

[Distracted]

Speaking of Enterprise, where the heck is it? Can you even watch it anywhere in this country at the moment? I don't see it running on scifi anymore.

TV guide.com says it's going to play on SciFi all Friday am August 29th in my area, five hours straight. I'm not sure how that works. Maybe they're just doing a few episodes a couple of times a month in marathon fashion or something.

[dialee]

Sci-fi Channel will be showing an all day marathon of Enterprise on August 29th, something like 18 hours of which fans get to choose 6 hours worth of favorites. Go to Scifi channel to pick your favorites.

Later in September, they'll be showing it at 5pm during the week.

[KKGlinka]

Those that have are Babylon 5 (John and Delen) being one and Firefly (Wash and Zoe) the other.

Yep. B5 was smart enough to include several different types of romantic relationships, as well. Besides the stable couple, John/Delen, you had the unrequited angle between Lennier and Delen, the tragic romance between Ivanova and Marcus and even that pseudo'ship thing between her and Talia. Not mirrorverse, at that.

I'm a bit more tepid with Firefly simply because I knew Whedon was writing it and he only has one technique when it comes to 'ships. He almost always does a great job building them, creating a plausible couple and then, oh angst, one of them dies tragically, the end. Every. Time. Like clockwork. I spent the entire movie waiting for either Zoe or Wash to die and golly, whaddyknow.

As far as I can tell, Trek is just too plain chicken to simply factor in a set romantic subplot. When I first started watching Enterprise, I thought for sure they had finally broken out of that mold because there were literally framing shots between Trip and T'Pol beginning with Broken Bow. Compositional cues! But, no, all on-going romance is evil or something and ruins hard core sci fi. e_e

[leslina]

I'm a bit more tepid with Firefly simply because I knew Whedon was writing it and he only has one technique when it comes to 'ships. He almost always does a great job building them, creating a plausible couple and then, oh angst, one of them dies tragically, the end. Every. Time. Like clockwork. I spent the entire movie waiting for either Zoe or Wash to die and golly, whaddyknow.

Unlike the masses of drones the world over, I am very critical of Joss Whedon and his "feminist perspective". Having an MA in Women's Studies, does not make you an expert. That being said, not only is he a one trick pony in the 'ship front, but he perpetuates the "sex is eeeeeviiiiiiil" bullshit that's also rampant in Sci-Fi.

[Distracted]

Sex is evil? Really?

SPOILER!!!:

That last scene in Serenity with Kaylie and Simon in the engine room didn't look like he felt that way to me. River's head popping into the scene was a kick. Seemed pretty joyful, all told. Maybe Whedon just likes variety in his female characters. A professional escort like Inara would tend to be standoffish with a business partner. It makes perfect sense for someone like that to separate the physical from the emotional to an unusual degree. Inara doesn't love her customers, but she has to be sympathetic to them and cater to them. It's a fine line. She's got to keep her emotional boundaries up. She's only able to show physical affection to paying customers, but Mal not only can't afford her, but cares for her too much as a person to offer money for her favors. She, in turn, cares for him a lot, but can't break her own "creed" about showing physical affection only in the context of a customer relationship and still function in her chosen profession. I do, however, think that killing off Wash was an idiotic idea.

[leslina]

Sex is evil? Really?

SPOILER!!!:

That last scene in Serenity with Kaylie and Simon in the engine room didn't look like he felt that way to me. River's head popping into the scene was a kick. Seemed pretty joyful, all told. Maybe Whedon just likes variety in his female characters. A professional escort like Inara would tend to be standoffish with a business partner. It makes perfect sense for someone like that to separate the physical from the emotional to an unusual degree. Inara doesn't love her customers, but she has to be sympathetic to them and cater to them. It's a fine line. She's got to keep her emotional boundaries up. She's only able to show physical affection to paying customers, but Mal not only can't afford her, but cares for her too much as a person to offer money for her favors. She, in turn, cares for him a lot, but can't break her own "creed" about showing physical affection only in the context of a customer relationship and still function in her chosen profession. I do, however, think that killing off Wash was an idiotic idea.

You done did it now...

SPOILER!!!:

The Inara/Mal complexities in Firefly are just one example, in my previous comment I was particularly thinking of BtVS and AtS . But back to Firefly for a moment, if being companion is such an enlightening, liberating, empowering trade/status he does a piss poor job of conveying it in that manner. Inara giving up her way of life to appease Mal and stop his name calling is neither of those things. Sure there are compromises to be made in any relationship, but when I see Inara making all the sacrifices, it doesn't make Mal sympathetic in my eyes, nor does it promote a feminist perspective. Granted we don't exactly know if Inara gives up her trade post the BDM, that's just my assumption. The epitome of a truly feminist character in Firefly, in my opinion was Thandie in Heart of Gold. A fantastic character portrayed by Melinda Clark and look what happened to her!

But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Elessar]

SPOILER!!!:

I didn't assume that she gave up her profession. In fact I was pissed because the way I saw it, the Inara/Mal thing was left dangling.

But I CAN sympathize in that, looking down the line, I saw no good way they could be together without her having to give up her career by the simple nature of what it was. Mal just doesn't seem like the kind of guy who could deal with that.

Plus her professional is quite a bit more intimate (IMO) than being a hooker or a porn star. It's more like being one of those high dollar escorts in Japan, and I think they have them here. The ones that really make an effort to have a good time besides the sex with their client. I would imagine that for someone like Inara, you can only survive in that career by forming a small, temporary, and flexible attachment to every one of the clients she chooses. It's almost the only way for someone emotionally genuine like her to even live such a trade. I don't see how she could continue to do that and be with anyone, particularly Mal, who couldn't deal with that.

[Distracted]

SPOILER!!!:

Yeah. My assumption was that they never got together because she was unwilling (financially unable/too afraid to be poor and dependent) to give up her profession and Mal was never going to stand for her continuing to have sex with other people while supposedly being his girlfriend. I just can't see the Mal character EVER being willing to do that. (As a matter of fact, no man I could ever respect would be willing to do that.) The only way I could see the two of them making it work is if both of them managed to become independently wealthy to the point where Inara felt economically secure and Mal felt like he could give up roaming around taking chances on getting killed in the process of trying to make a living. THEN they might be able to focus on each other.

[Lady Rainbow]

Stupid question: How can you read spoilers????

[Distracted]

Just left click on them and highlight them, LR... but you're right. The spoiler thing is getting a little silly, and I started it. I just didn't want to ruin Serenity in case anyone hadn't seen it.

To get this thread back on track, I'd like to speak up a bit for the writers who try to construct these imaginary relationships that we're all griping about. It's not enough these days to deliver a satisfactory romance despite obstacles and then have a "happy ending", since one person's "happy ending" might well be someone else's cop out. Let me explain.

Say you have two strong, intelligent professionals who are interested in each other. One happens to be male and the other female. You've set it up so that if they get together and procreate SOMEONE is going to have to give up their career for the "mommy track" or "daddy track" and raise that kid... unless they just want to hire someone to do it, a solution I was forced into in the early years of my medical training which, believe me, is definitely NOT ideal. So... do you have them avoid kids and work together while trying to maintain a relationship? That's what I did in my stories. You'll get gripes from the readers/viewers who want to see them "be a real family". Do you give in and let them make a baby, and have them both leave Starfleet? Then they're off the show. Do you have Trip give up HIS career because he's the emotional one and can't stand the idea of a kid of his growing up with some paid nanny as the child's only parent? I can just hear the grousing about that one! Or does T'Pol go off to raise the kid, leaving Trip working to support the family and only home on leave? The feminists would have a field day with that one! You just can't make everybody happy here!

Or look at Mal and Inara in Serenity/Firefly (I'll try to do this without spoilers). Whedon's set up a marvelous analogy to modern life here. Inara's a professionally trained independent career woman. Should she give up her independence to rely on a possibly unreliable on-again off-again smuggler type "for love"? She's devoted entirely too much time, money, and energy to become what she's become to do that. She CAN'T be with Mal and continue to work in her chosen profession. He's a traditionalist. He won't share her with her job...not to the extent that she's got to put herself into her work. Could she make a living another way? Possibly. It wouldn't be as lucrative, though, I'm sure. And the only person she trusts financially is herself. So what Whedon's done is mirror the dilemma of EVERY career woman in the audience who's ever been forced to choose between her family and her career. If he has Inara give up being a companion, the feminists will crucify him. If she doesn't, then a relationship between them just isn't believable considering the way he's written Mal. Mal would have to change, and then the non-feminists and traditionalists in his audience would crucify him. As far as this situation is concerned, Whedon's really written himself into a corner he can't get out of.

[leslina]

Just left click on them and highlight them, LR... but you're right. The spoiler thing is getting a little silly, and I started it. I just didn't want to ruin Serenity in case anyone hadn't seen it.

To get this thread back on track, I'd like to speak up a bit for the writers who try to construct these imaginary relationships that we're all griping about. It's not enough these days to deliver a satisfactory romance despite obstacles and then have a "happy ending", since one person's "happy ending" might well be someone else's cop out. Let me explain.

Say you have two strong, intelligent professionals who are interested in each other. One happens to be male and the other female. You've set it up so that if they get together and procreate SOMEONE is going to have to give up their career for the "mommy track" or "daddy track" and raise that kid... unless they just want to hire someone to do it, a solution I was forced into in the early years of my medical training which, believe me, is definitely NOT ideal. So... do you have them avoid kids and work together while trying to maintain a relationship? That's what I did in my stories. You'll get gripes from the readers/viewers who want to see them "be a real family". Do you give in and let them make a baby, and have them both leave Starfleet? Then they're off the show. Do you have Trip give up HIS career because he's the emotional one and can't stand the idea of a kid of his growing up with some paid nanny as the child's only parent? I can just hear the grousing about that one! Or does T'Pol go off to raise the kid, leaving Trip working to support the family and only home on leave? The feminists would have a field day with that one! You just can't make everybody happy here!

Or look at Mal and Inara in Serenity/Firefly (I'll try to do this without spoilers). Whedon's set up a marvelous analogy to modern life here. Inara's a professionally trained independent career woman. Should she give up her independence to rely on a possibly unreliable on-again off-again smuggler type "for love"? She's devoted entirely too much time, money, and energy to become what she's become to do that. She CAN'T be with Mal and continue to work in her chosen profession. He's a traditionalist. He won't share her with her job...not to the extent that she's got to put herself into her work. Could she make a living another way? Possibly. It wouldn't be as lucrative, though, I'm sure. And the only person she trusts financially is herself. So what Whedon's done is mirror the dilemma of EVERY career woman in the audience who's ever been forced to choose between her family and her career. If he has Inara give up being a companion, the feminists will crucify him. If she doesn't, then a relationship between them just isn't believable considering the way he's written Mal. Mal would have to change, and then the non-feminists and traditionalists in his audience would crucify him. As far as this situation is concerned, Whedon's really written himself into a corner he can't get out of.

You make some great points Dis. My gripe is in how writers see compromise and sacrifice as too much trouble to even try to write/develop a plausible relationship on screen. I say, bite the damn bullet, at least make the attempt. Personally, I don't care for the "happily ever after". I'm more interested in the "taking it one day at a time-together--ever after". I would rather see an on screen ship dealing with what it is to be in a relationship. It's why I found Joss's Wash and Zoe so refreshing from his usual ship tripe. I even LOVED seeing them argue about parenthood on the show. That just floored me. It was so fresh and so damn real.

[blacknblue]

I am in the vanishingly small minority that never watched Firefly, so please bear with my stupid questions. But if I understand correctly, this Inara is a courtesan. Correct? Or rather, a "companion" in terms of the show. In other words, a prostitute. Am I understanding this correctly?

Please help a narrow minded cave man grope his way toward enlightenment. Is there really a debate about whether it wuold be unreasaonble for a man to expect his lady love to give up her career as a whore before he would be willing to dedicate himself to a lifetime partnership with her? Or did I miss something along the way?

[leslina]

I am in the vanishingly small monority that never watched Firefly, so please bear with my stupid questions. But if I understand correctly, this Inara is a courtesan. Correct? Or rather, a "companion" in terms of the show. In other words, a prostitute. Am I understanding this correctly?

Please help a narrow minded cave man grope hsi way toward enlightenment. Is there really a debate about whether it wuold be unreasaonble for a man to expect his lady love to give up her career as a whore before he would be willing to dedicate himself to a lifetime partnership with her? Or did I miss something along the way?

Yup. In the Firefly-verse, Companions are high class call girls/boys for lack of a better term, but their social status is above your common whore. The Companion planet, Sihnon, is one of the Core planets. Core-planets are wealthy and refined. Rim planets are usually back water, rugged and often times underdeveloped.

In the series Mal constantly refers to Inara as a whore, yet takes offense at other men that refer to her as such. He also shows hostility for her profession, yet harbors affections for her. It's my opinion that Mal wouldn't engage in a romantic relationship with Inara should she continue with her profession.

[blacknblue]

uh... yes?

No man with a vestige of self-respect would. Nor am I, in my limited male brain, capable of conceiving that if he attempted to do so she would retain even a sliver of respect for him.

Of course, I am only an ignorant sexist cave man.

But I can testify that trying to formulate a believable fictional romance is a bit challenging. Especially when the people involved come from differing backgrounds.

[Distracted]

In the Firefly 'verse, a companion is considerably more than a whore. Companions are chosen in childhood (it's a priviledge) and trained for years in multiple disciplines. It's my understanding that Inara speaks several languages and has the equivalent of at least a degree in psychology, as well as being an excellent dancer, trained musician, and skilled negotiator and facilitator. Think super-geisha. I agree fully that Mal would never have a relationship with her unless she stopped having sex with other people as part of her job, but she has other skills that could be put to good use. Unfortunately, every time she tried to take on a client to provide services which didn't include sex, as soon as it became known that she was a licensed companion she'd have a hard time limiting her services and still getting paid a fraction of what she was worth...thus her reluctance to limit her services. It's hard to make a living with half your training tied behind your back. It's a challenging dilemma.

Think about it this way. Let's say a person had a career which was well-respected but that their love interest found morally repellant... let's say he's an OB-GYN who prescribes birth control and does surgical sterilization, and she's a devout Catholic. He'd have a really hard time making a living if he stopped providing pills and doing tubals, but she feels REALLY strongly that what he's doing is wrong and an affront to her beliefs. If he loves her enough, will he cut his income in half? If she loves him enough, will she give in and ignore the fact that he's leading hundreds of girls a week into a state of sin? What if he refuses to use natural family planning himself and insists that she use birth control because there's nothing wrong with it and he's not ready to be a father yet?

See the analogy? It's not a resolvable situation unless somebody changes. It's good storytelling though, because it's so real.