DO YOU LIKE SIM?

[evcake]

[quote="Pitseleh"]I love Similitude. I think it is among the best episodes the show had, and the scenes between Sim and T'Pol are incredibly well done. They're so full of meaning...
quote]

I couldn't have said it better...so I didn't

[dialee]

I’m back! Having read the further comments and my own mixed feelings on Beyond Death, Part II or Chapter 6, I came to the conclusion the real conflict in this chapter is T’Pol’s feelings, motivations, and perceptions. And that is what Escriba was trying to avoid when she says, “"As for the story, I didn't want to give the impression that T'Pol's decision is good or anything. It's a crappy situation and she didn't have much options. For me, the problem isn't exactly what she decided (which, again, I think is a great stupidity on her part even if she didn't have more choices), the problem is how she acts with Trip after that. She needed to inderstand she did something wrong and they needed to discuss their situation."

However, when you did that, you gave the reader (at least this one) the impression that T’Pol was ambiguous about her feelings and she didn’t know what the heck she wanted and even to the point, I got the impression that for a moment in time, T’Pol didn’t know whether Sim was really Trip or not and a clone but a separate entity. This is why I think Trip was angry when he realized that T’Pol slept with Sim, that she had in fact been unfaithful. And in fact, she still doesn’t believe that they are two different people when she realizes, “Because after finding somebody to share my life with, your loss will be unbearable. Because after being with you, I don’t want to be alone. Not again. Not like I’ve been all my life.” This quote is very troublesome since she is talking with Trip at this point.

Also, another concern, Escriba, Trip (or you as the author) referred to T’Pol’s feelings or reactions as human or humanity twice in Chapter 6, please don’t make her into a human woman with pointed ears.

Oh to answer to the question of the topic, yes I liked Sim very much for himself alone as a character.

[Alelou]

Actually that's in her head, not something she's saying out loud. But yes, it indicates to me that she doesn't truly distinguish between them.

I think it's entirely possible that T'Pol didn't really fall for Trip UNTIL Sim. Even a Vulcan might need the encouragement of discovering he could actually be thinking about her that way. And Sim put Trip's finer qualities into relief.

And since Trip and T'Pol were not involved at all at this point, except in neuro-pressure, I truly don't understand how her doing anything with Sim can be construed as being unfaithful to Trip.

JT, is the story you refer to the New Year's Eve one? That's a great story, especially this time of year!
http://triaxiansilk.com/fanfics/hijk/ju ... _year.html

[dialee]

The comment regarding her unfaithfulness from Trip's point of view, I'm saying, he may feel that way because as an extrapolation of Sim's feelings, Trip was already in love with T'Pol and knew it despite what he said in Home. In the story, I think he felt a little betrayed because as far as Trip is concerned, Sim is definitely another person, another man, not Trip himself.

[Alelou]

Actually, I was more responding to Asso's sense of outrage. I could understand that better if she and Trip were already fooling around in any way by the time Sim showed up -- had ever said a word to each other about their attraction -- but they hadn't. Unless I'm missing something here, which is possible.

One of the things I really like about Escriba's story is that they have a chance to get to this point without Trellium-D being involved.

[Pitseleh]

***deep breath*** I have a bunch of thoughts regarding this right now and I need to get it together before I start writing...

First of all, Escriba, please keep on writing the story. I seriously need to read where this is going. Por favor!!!

You're not including T'Pol's use of Trellium in this story, are you? I think that's kind of important to know, 'cause I think that influenced her behavior on S3 a lot... I'm not sure that even if the strictest of terms T'Pol wouldn't have created Sim to save Trip. Even if by the time Similitude came along Trip and T'Pol were not romantically involved, I think they had enough of a connection and chemistry to care for each other in the sense that she wouldn't want to lose him, especially not in such a messy situation as the Expanse was. There are many ways to contradict this, but I'm just not sure if she would or wouldn't have. She wasn't the most Vulcan of Vulcans, after all (and that's sort of why I like her).

Now, regarding

SPOILER!!!:

T'Pol sleeping with Sim

, I'm still having the hardest of times trying to understand why she would have done this. The kiss on Similitude I understand, 'cause it works on many levels and each person can put it in the context they want: she was saying good-bye to Sim; she was trying to thank Sim; she wanted to know what it would be like without taking a risk with Trip; she was taking a chance 'cause she might lose them both; etc... Whatever works for you. Between the dialogue, the music, and the acting, I don't think there is much or anything at all to criticize about that scene... But this is far more drastic and way more intimate. Even if this was all she could give to him, the way the scene is constructed in the fic lets the reader know that she's very much aware that there are feelings involved in this and well, aren't there potential consequences for her as well? I am in no way attempting to criticize the story, however, I'd love to read the writers thoughts on this 'cause it has turned out to be a somewhat controversial point of the story. As I said before, I think this comes 'cause even when we all watch the same thing, we don't process it the same way. It's as if we had different filters; we all capture different things.

[Asso]

Actually, I was more responding to Asso's sense of outrage. I could understand that better if she and Trip were already fooling around in any way by the time Sim showed up -- had ever said a word to each other about their attraction -- but they hadn't.

Do you think logic is logical here?

And, honestly, regarding Trellium, I prefer and consider more real Trellium than...

SPOILER!!!:

sleeping whit Sim

.

I also have to reply my question itself.

My attitude for Sim and his episode is ambivalent: some things were good. Some things sounded wrong.
But T'Pol's eyes were splendid.
As the way CT played Sim.

AH! I want to be pellucid: Escriba's story is worth! Absolutely.
Simply, as I said, I can't taste FULLY - FULLY, I repeat - it, because my feelings are what they are.
But, me too, I'm waiting for her next chapter.

And then... the story - already I said it - stirred something inside me: some ideas are born in my mind.

[Escriba]

OK, my turn to answer some questions and commentaries (you won't hear me complaining about explaining myself )

However, when you did that, you gave the reader (at least this one) the impression that T’Pol was ambiguous about her feelings and she didn’t know what the heck she wanted and even to the point, I got the impression that for a moment in time, T’Pol didn’t know whether Sim was really Trip or not and a clone but a separate entity. This is why I think Trip was angry when he realized that T’Pol slept with Sim, that she had in fact been unfaithful. And in fact, she still doesn’t believe that they are two different people when she realizes, “Because after finding somebody to share my life with, your loss will be unbearable. Because after being with you, I don’t want to be alone. Not again. Not like I’ve been all my life.” This quote is very troublesome since she is talking with Trip at this point.

T'Pol was torn about her feelings, to some extend, at least. She did it, she wanted to think she did it, because she ordered Sim's creation, she ordered his destructions and she wanted to fulfill his last wish. It was (at that point) her idea of giving Sim the only gift she could. But, at the same time (nobody is so noble), she did it because she wanted to save Trip too, and because Sim resembled Trip so much that she could close her eyes and pretend. Yes, it's a crazy way to guarantee eternal suffering, but she killed a sentient being, so she was ready to accept it.

And I didn't want to say this but... The problem is that T'Pol can be a little stupid sometimes. I mean, T'Pol, honey, you mated with Trip's clone, and now part of his neural tissue (the important part) is in Trip's brain. You created the beginning of a bond, you fool. Of course she's confused. She has feelings for Trip, not Sim, but she had sex with Sim, not Trip, and now there is a kind of bond between Trip and her, consequence of her sleeping with Sim.

Yes, I AM that cruel.

So she had to clarify her feelings (and mature a little in the process) and she needed to clarify that Trip and Sim were different people and that she had feelings for Trip. Now, she can act. Now she isn't confused: it's Trip, it's always been Trip (even when she didn't know it, even when she was denying it).

And Trip is angry with her (aside of a little jealous) because, after her confession (the way she did it), he thought she only wanted to hurt him. Something like: "I know thanks to Sim that you love me, I find that idea repulsive, so go to hell". But there is this little darn bond... The rest, I think, I've explayed it in the story.

Also, another concern, Escriba, Trip (or you as the author) referred to T’Pol’s feelings or reactions as human or humanity twice in Chapter 6, please don’t make her into a human woman with pointed ears.

I hope not (but you'll be the judge of that ). I chose the word "humanity" just to express that Trip was able to understand those feelings. T'Pol acts (and sometimes reacts) differently to feelings, not because she doesn't feel, but because her heritage and even phisiology are different. Anyway, the word is a little controversial, more than intended, I guess (Alelou, you were right ).

Or Sim... or Trip. THERE'S NO OTHER WAY.

Unless she wants both.

Really? This is T'Pol? Well! In this case - the heart's reasons command me again - I refuse this T'Pol. It’s NOT my T’Pol.

She wants none of them. She can't, at that point. She has (repressed) feelings for Trip, but she wasn't aware they were that strong. She doesn't love Sim (she cares for him, but not to that extend), but what other thing can she do? Saying no? "Oh, Sim, dear, I know I created you and now I'm going to kill you, but let me tell you that even if it's your last and most wanted desire, I'm not going to sleep with you." We're talking about T'Pol here, the woman that can sacrifice everything for others but nothing for herself (remember "Stigma"?)

Which gift greater than the gift of herself, for a woman...of the gift of herself to the man who loves her and who has to die?

Again, really? This is T'Pol? But doesn’t she be a Vulcan? No, no! She’s not only a Vulcan female! She’s T’Pol!

Yes, T'Pol, the one who (in canon) slept with Trip and then dismissed it saying it was "a sexual exploration", the one that treated Trip like shit after that (especially in "E2"), the one who married in front of him in "Home", the one that gave him the cold shoulder in "Observer Effect" and "The Aenar".

Yes, I know who is T'Pol and what she's capable of. I love her, but I know what she is capable of.

In fact, I don't know why this is so controversial, compared to canon T'Pol my T'Pol is Mother Theresa

So… Please, Escriba, do not get angry or annoyed, but... I admire your style and your ability and your way of writing... but – this time – I can’t fully enjoy your story.

I can never be angry with you, Asso, you're a dear I understand you, believe me. If it is too much, it's too much, every person has their limits. You don't have to apologize to think as you think, that's what makes you... well, you

First of all, Escriba, please keep on writing the story. I seriously need to read where this is going. Por favor!!!

Aheam... Alelou?

I'm afraid to say this but... That was the most bitter part of the story, the rest is quite conventional.

You're not including T'Pol's use of Trellium in this story, are you?

Ummm... No. T'Pol has this weak moment in this chapter, but that's all. After that she acts as a competent and caring sentient being.

But this is far more drastic and way more intimate. Even if this was all she could give to him, the way the scene is constructed in the fic lets the reader know that she's very much aware that there are feelings involved in this and well, aren't there potential consequences for her as well? I am in no way attempting to criticize the story, however, I'd love to read the writers thoughts on this 'cause it has turned out to be a somewhat controversial point of the story. As I said before, I think this comes 'cause even when we all watch the same thing, we don't process it the same way. It's as if we had different filters; we all capture different things.

She thought the potential consequences would be to feel guilty for the rest of her life. She didn't think (at that point) that there would be consequences to her relationship with Trip. She thought: "OK, I've done this, but now Trip is alive and we can go on as always." But she was wrong. Because as time goes by, her feelings for Trip are stronger and stronger and she realizes that (if Sim's death affected her) Trip's death will destroy her. I mean, she can feel a bond creating. And she just gets terrified. And we know what she does when she's scared, don't we? (I love T'Pol, but because I love her, I know which are her weaknesses.)

I am in no way attempting to criticize the story, however, I'd love to read the writers thoughts on this 'cause it has turned out to be a somewhat controversial point of the story. As I said before, I think this comes 'cause even when we all watch the same thing, we don't process it the same way. It's as if we had different filters; we all capture different things.

Oh, but critizing is all right. It's good to discuss those things. In fact, I didn't think this was worth discussing when I wrote the story, because I saw it so logical... I swear, I didn't write it just for the shake of shock or anything like that, it has its motives and it helps to develop the story, but I didn't think it was going to be so controversial. But I've learnt different perspectives about the same thing, and that's good

[Alelou]

OH jeez. Sorry, escriba. Thank you for poking me. I literally forgot that I already have the rest of the story. It must be post-holiday catatonia.

[justTripn]

Do people put this much thought into the reasons they sleep with/fool around with real-life people? I'm willing to go with the idea that to T'Pol and Sim, it seemed like a good enouph idea at the time. End of analysis.

The fact that you have hypothesised a bond between Trip and T'Pol as a result of Trip sleeping with Sim is evil brilliance. Great sci fi twist.

And I'm liking the tragedy of T'Pol telling Trip about sleeping with Sim in such a passive agressive manner. THAT"S what made Trip mad. OK, I buy that. That makes sense. And T'Pol has no idea herself why she came out with that nonsequetor, as you, Escriba, labeled it. Sometimes people just pop out with mean things to say and aren't sure later why they said them. I do that sometimes. Why? Because I'm mean sometimes. At least for the moment that I want to say it. I had the adolescent Lorian popping out with some mean statements towards Archer and even his father. Why did he do it?

???? I think if you asked him, he'd say, "I don't know . . ."

And yes, Alelou, that's my weird New Years Eve story I was referring to. It has such a wierd history, that I'm not sure how I feel about it today. But it got me thinking about Sim. Later I wrote a draft of a Sim story called "You're All I Think About." About Sim growing up and realizing his feelings for T'Pol. But I couldn't find the happy ending. LOL!!! DUH!!! What a depressing set-up for a story: the Sim point of view. But Hopeful Romantic pulled it off for the Strange New Worlds contest.

[michelle]

I adore Sim.

And I, 100% agree with JustTripn's posts.

[Asso]

I have to be honest.
Not me.
But I will try to understand.
(Nevertheless I'm not sure I'll be capable)

[Aquarius]

Do people put this much thought into the reasons they sleep with/fool around with real-life people? I'm willing to go with the idea that to T'Pol and Sim, it seemed like a good enouph idea at the time. End of analysis.

Damn skippy!!

Escriba--I fully intend to read this story--I'm so intrigued!--but not until I've seen "Similutde"...

*ducks various objects bound to be thrown my way, due to being incredibly lame...*

[Alelou]

No, you should definitely see it first. I can't believe you're such a TnT'er without having seen this stuff!!!!

[justTripn]

If you haven't watched season three, you are in for a real angsty treat. Ahh . . . I recall after I had "finished" watching Enterprise, discovering that somehow I had missed "Dawn." What a wonderful "lost episode" to find. All Trip, all the time.