The pon farr thread

[Alelou]

But if I remember correctly, a woman who declares kal-li-fee becomes the property of the winner -- in other words, she's giving up some major rights in the process. Yes? So it's a gamble in both ways?

I may not be remembering it correctly.

One thing I like about BnB's Purgatory is how he explores a very matrilineal family structure, yet T'Pol can't even write her own checks anymore once she's married. It doesn't make a lot of sense, but in real life a lot of things are contradictory too.

And somehow a squirrel just defeated my squirrel baffle, so I have to go... no wonder that thing is so big and fat!!!

[evcake]

One of the things I'm wondering about T'Pring is, since she didn't seem to show any signs of the Blood Fever, did that maybe have less to do with her being female, and more to do with the fact that she had a stronger emotional attachment to Stonn that was somehow able to circumvent her betrothal bond with Spock?

That's what I've always thought.

[Linda]

I wonder too. Sounds plausable. So that telepathic connection made when two people are seven years old can be overridden or weakened in one of the two? Could it be done in the male so that he goes to his new girlfriend instead of his intended when he goes into pon farr? Somebody should write a story about that.

[panyasan]

Hey, don't worry! You're the expert here But I wasn't using the Japanese analogy for the marriage, I use it for the somehow hierarchical society and the "don't touch" policy

And yes, T'Les does say she grew to love her husband, but what I don't know is what Vulcans understand for love, because I don't think it's the lovey-dovey-can't-control-yourself thing.

I think I wrote down my thoughts about Japan, because it's - besides of course TnT - one of the subjects that comes kokoro kara (from the heart). And you're right about the hierachical society (I would add the importance of family) and the don't touch policy. In my own country we have a custom that we kiss friends and family three times on the cheek. It's how we greet. After being in Japan, where you greet with a bow, my family wanted to greet me on the airport and kissed me on the cheek. I felt very reluctant because I felt they came too close to me. (Yip, little cultureshock.) I felt the same when for the first time someone hugged me. I was 19 and been on holiday with an international group of people, when at the end a American guy said goodbye and hugged me. It freaked me out! I didn't say a word, but I try to escape as soon as possible. I only saw *the_abomination* once, but when Archer hugs T'Pol she acted just like me when I was 19. I can feel your pain, T'Pol.

Back to the topic. I don't think Vulcan love is lovey-dovey, but more like a developed friendship/strong and deep connection-thing. A pratical agreement to protect and develop the family, but it doesn't mean that strong feelings can develop. I think Tuvok is a good example.
And concerning the role of women in Vulcan society; males have far more opportunties then women. But maybe women are better at finding the loopholes. Hopefully.

Concerning pon farr weakening or strengthen the telepatic link... When Vulcan telepatic link during "intimate relationships", linking is during pon farr is very plausible.

[Escriba]

I think I wrote down my thoughts about Japan, because it's - besides of course TnT - one of the subjects that comes kokoro kara (from the heart).

"Kokoro" is the heart in the spiritual way and "shinzou" in the biological sense, isn't it? I'm learning Japanese (badly) little by little. Verbs aren't so difficult, but kanji and those words that serve to count things (tsu, hon, satsu...) kill me. Oh, and the difference between ga or wa (theme of conversation or subject)

I was 19 and been on holiday with an international group of people, when at the end a American guy said goodbye and hugged me. It freaked me out! I didn't say a word, but I try to escape as soon as possible. I only saw *the_abomination* once, but when Archer hugs T'Pol she acted just like me when I was 19. I can feel your pain, T'Pol.

Yeah, her face is priceless.

Back to the topic. I don't think Vulcan love is lovey-dovey, but more like a developed friendship/strong and deep connection-thing. A pratical agreement to protect and develop the family, but it doesn't mean that strong feelings can develop. I think Tuvok is a good example.
And concerning the role of women in Vulcan society; males have far more opportunties then women. But maybe women are better at finding the loopholes. Hopefully.

Somehow this is related to Romans too (I can relate everything to the Romans ) They used to know friendship, of course (an honour it), but they had a bad opinion of love as this unstoppable feeling that slaves you. They hated if somebody was attached to other as a slave (since dominion, the pater familias thing, was very important for them.) Homosexuallity wasn't wrong, being on the receiving end was.

But females being very good looking for loopholes had a lot of sense. Yeah, yeah...

[panyasan]

Counting in Japanese... Why on Earth Japanese has so many ways to count, baffles me. I mean, come on, different shapes, different way of counting?
I used my favorite kanji (the kanji for love) when Kov decribes the Vulcan sign of affection in chapter 6 of The Captives. You can see in the Kanji the sign for women and man, now joined together under a roof and the rain is falling down. Poetic, isn't it.
I used to make little stories to remember Kanji. Like the one for return, "through the ricefields, along the river, I am finaly home."

[Asso]

... Love is a very powerful and very irrational feeling, it is THE feeling par excellence. A people so proud of control should despise it. Romans did it and they were Humans, so imagine some species that doesn't have our phisiology.

Yes, Asso, you can attack me with some poetry now

Vivamus, mea Lesbia, atque amemus
Rumoresque senum severiorum
Omnes unius aestimemus assis.
Soles occidere et redire possunt:
nobis cum semel occidit brevis lux,
nox est perpetua una dormienda.
Da mi basìa mille, deinde centum,
dein mille altera, dein secunda centum
deinde usque altera mille, deinde centum.
Dein, cum milia multa fecerimus,
conturbabimus illa, ne sciamus,
aut nequis malus invidere possit,
cum tantum sciat esse basiorum.

I take up the challenge.

Denying the love?
Controlling it?
Is it possible?
Yes.
As it's possible dying before the death.

[Escriba]

Aaaaahhh!! Catulo's poetry!! Noooo!!! It reminds me my high school years

I always thought that after reading this poem "Lesbia" looked at him and answered: "You know, I'm not going to sleep with you."

Counting in Japanese... Why on Earth Japanese has so many ways to count, baffles me. I mean, come on, different shapes, different way of counting?

I know! You have to be thinking all the time "Hmmm... this is small and compact, but it's long too and electronic... so..."

I used my favorite kanji (the kanji for love) when Kov decribes the Vulcan sign of affection in chapter 6 of The Captives. You can see in the Kanji the sign for women and man, now joined together under a roof and the rain is falling down. Poetic, isn't it.
I used to make little stories to remember Kanji. Like the one for return, "through the ricefields, along the river, I am finaly home."

Yes, very lovely and poetic. However, I don't know enough kanji to make stories for more complicated kanji I know, I know, patience and perseverance...

[Asso]

Aaaaahhh!! Catulo's poetry!! Noooo!!! It reminds me my high school years

I always thought that after reading this poem "Lesbia" looked at him and answered: "You know, I'm not going to sleep with you."

Actually, she didn't exactly sleep with him.

[Alelou]

I can't read Latin, so I'm just staring at that woman's butt and wondering how it can be attached to the rest of her body in any sort of proportion I've ever seen in real life.

But maybe I just haven't seen enough naked big-assed ladies.

[Escriba]

Actually, she didn't exactly sleep with him.

Well, yeah, I know now that she not only slept with him, but with half of Galia and she was surely buried in a coffin of "y" shape, but I didn't know it when I was a teen

I can't read Latin, so I'm just staring at that woman's butt and wondering how it can be attached to the rest of her body in any sort of proportion I've ever seen in real life.

But maybe I just haven't seen enough naked big-assed ladies.

[Asso]

I can't read Latin, so I'm just staring at that woman's butt and wondering how it can be attached to the rest of her body in any sort of proportion I've ever seen in real life.

But maybe I just haven't seen enough naked big-assed ladies.

Strange thought.
Women always marvel me. They are... wrong-footing.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

One of the things I'm wondering about T'Pring is, since she didn't seem to show any signs of the Blood Fever, did that maybe have less to do with her being female, and more to do with the fact that she had a stronger emotional attachment to Stonn that was somehow able to circumvent her betrothal bond with Spock?

T'Pring didn't show any signs of blood fever because Spock-in-heat hadn't triggered it in her. That would happen through a mind meld of sorts, like Vorik did (forcibly) on B'Elanna in VOY. A betrothal bond made during childhood wouldn't be sufficient, the thing it did was drive Spock home to seek out his pre-arranged mate. I don't think even a full-blown marriage bond would suffice. The mind-link must be established before.

This is based on the view that Vulcan females don't enter pon farr on their own.

[Aquarius]

Back to the topic. I don't think Vulcan love is lovey-dovey, but more like a developed friendship/strong and deep connection-thing. A pratical agreement to protect and develop the family, but it doesn't mean that strong feelings can develop. I think Tuvok is a good example.

The thing about Vulcans is, things we take for granted, they consider very intimate. So who knows what happens behind closed doors when the kids aren't home from school yet? So while a Vulcan couple may express love differently than a human couple (assuming they were even in love), I do believe it's a feeling they're capable of and, if they did feel it, they would probably demonstrate it somehow, where and when appropriate. Sarek definitely looked at Amanda affectionately despite himself. And the finger embrace was used publicly. We never saw them play tonsil hockey, but it was clear that he loved her very much and that she was able to accept the way he expressed it for what it was.

It also seems to me that not all Vulcans end up in pre-arranged marriages, and I don't just mean people who lost their first spouse for whatever reason. So I would guess that if a couple of Vulcans had married each other of their own free will, chances are they did so because each thought the other was pretty nifty, so you may have a higher likelihood of demonstrative affection--again, where and when appropriate.

[Alelou]

Well, you could argue that Sarek had clearly gone native, since Amanda was human. He was probably just so grateful not to have to wait seven years he couldn't help glowing affectionately at her.

But judging from the way old T'Les went smoothing Tucker's shoulders in her man's suit, she also liked him just fine even when she wasn't all pon farr crazy. I like the theory that where affection grows, even logical Vulcans will enjoy a little off-the-calendar noogie.

I also like that theory because I hate to think T'Pol was just a calculating bitch when she dropped that robe in front of Tucker, and if that wasn't at least partly due to affection and lust it's hard to reach any other conclusion.