The pon farr thread

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Re: The pon farr thread

Postby Aquarius » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:34 am

Alelou wrote:I also like that theory because I hate to think T'Pol was just a calculating bitch when she dropped that robe in front of Tucker, and if that wasn't at least partly due to affection and lust it's hard to reach any other conclusion.


About that...

She certainly put up a lot of resistance to marrying Koss, didn't she? First, it was because it threw a wrench into her career goals. There was definitely a sense of "Hey, what about me???" there.

Later, her feelings for Trip seemed to just sort close the door on that deal forever...until they used her mother to get to her.

But aside from career goals...

Though T'Pol's emotions were always closer to the surface, she still always soldiered on like a good little Vulcan. For her time in her society, though, she definitely seemed more open to new things than her contemporaries--sneaking out to go listen to jazz, experimenting with mind melds with emotional Vulcans, going to the occasional movie, etc. Now, I'm looking at her time as relatively repressive and dark compared to Spock's, and in my mind I'm likening it to even less than half a century ago when our own American society was much more repressive about sex--the whole "good girls don't" thing and all that.

So T'Pol was probably raised with the Vulcan equivalent of "good girls don't", maybe bought into the whole only 7 years thing, or just anticipated it to be awful because she wasn't that thrilled with Koss in the first place. While I think her "experiment" with Trip came out of a sense of "WTF?? There's GOT to be something more/better than what I'm going to get at home!", I think it was only her feelings for Trip that made acting on it possible. It may have been a little calculating in that she saw he was getting close with Amanda and thought "Oh crap, if I don't do something now, I'll never get another chance," but she never would've considered it if she didn't care for him. I don't think she went into it intending to use him up and throw him away. I think it was more like the next morning she panicked, maybe frightened by the intensity of her feelings for him, or maybe finally thinking about all the consequences she'd said "f--- it!" to the night before, figuring it would hurt them both less if she tried to cut him loose now rather than later.

What I found interesting was T'Pol's rebellion against her mother in "Home," when T'Les was dogging her about her relationship with Trip, and how their children would live in shame if they could even have children together, etc. No matter how old you are or what planet you're from, your parents NEVER like your boyfriend! :lol:
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Re: The pon farr thread

Postby Alelou » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:06 am

Eh, that's not always true. My dad couldn't understand why I would want to break up with my last boyfriend ... though I think that's because he was a model maker/special effects guy and he used to make my dad WWII models. :lol:

And they were relieved that we all finally got married ... it took us awhile ... not that they are our spouses' biggest fans. No one's ever good enough for your own kid, maybe?

I can understand T'Les having issues with what looks like a crazy infatuation from her point of view, and an utterly illogical one with terrible social consequences. I probably would have felt the same, at least until young Mr. Tucker charmed me. 8)
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Re: The pon farr thread

Postby Aquarius » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:05 pm

Yeah. Seems like all Trip had to do was start fixing things around the house and then Moms starts to come around. :lol:

'Course, where I'm from, your parents wait for you to come home from your date on the porch with a shotgun. :wink:

Poor Trip, when T'Les tells him she's aware of their "romantic involvement." Translation: "I know you've seen my daughter naked..." :shock: :vulcan: :lol: I was already mentally rewriting "Meet the Parents."

ETA: this brings to mind another question: how much do Vulcans value sexual virtue? I mean, if T'Pol had been married to Koss for more than a minute, and if she had to be married to him more than in name only, he might figure out pretty quick that he wasn't the first one to score a home run.
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Re: The pon farr thread

Postby Alelou » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:08 pm

I'm trying to decide whether you're saying what I think you're saying and whether I can talk about it plainly on this board, which is weird because in theory at least it's not that big a deal...:?
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Re: The pon farr thread

Postby Aquarius » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:34 pm

Basically, would it have been such a big deal if she was not a "virgin bride". Just thinking aloud about whether or not her society would care about such a thing or not. Not sure if that requires any kind of detail one would need to avoid going into at the board...biology aside, I'm figuring at some point any kind of telepathic bond might've given it away.
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Re: The pon farr thread

Postby Alelou » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:56 pm

I've read stories in which it's a very big deal, and others in which T'Pol had former husbands, boyfriends, nasty guys she got stuck doing pon farr favors for, etc. Plenty of iterations out there.

If it were really a big deal, though, I'd think it would have been more than enough to get her out of the marriage in the first place.
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Re: The pon farr thread

Postby Aquarius » Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:04 am

True enough. That does seem to be the one excuse she didn't offer while trying to get out of it.
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Re: The pon farr thread

Postby panyasan » Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:02 am

Aquarius wrote:ETA: this brings to mind another question: how much do Vulcans value sexual virtue? I mean, if T'Pol had been married to Koss for more than a minute, and if she had to be married to him more than in name only, he might figure out pretty quick that he wasn't the first one to score a home run.

In most every old traditional culture being a virgin before marriage is a very big deal. In fact, in ancient texts the phrase "And he went to her place and slept with her" means marriage. It has to do also with the principle that a women "belongs" to one man and not to different men. This principle (one man - one women) fits well in Vulcan society, also when you think that a telepatic bond can develop. (BTW, in those cultures I mentioned it's sometimes seen as okay when a man marries more then one women, but NEVER it's aloud for a women to have more then one relationship.)

My little theory about Vulcan marriage is that it has three stages.
1. The marriage ritual, where couples make contact/bond with their fingers, based on logic, as we see in Home.
2. The katra-bonding, what happens with Trip and T'Pol and also the reason behind the custom that couples have to stay together for one year after marriage.
3. The fysicial bonding, intimate relationships.
So you have logic, katra and body.

T'Pol talks about that Koss' family is negotiating to make her marriage complete. When Koss releases her from the marriage, it's called an annulment (meaning the marriage is not complete).
That's why Koss' family put pressure on T'Pol to go through with stage 2 and 3. T'Pol had run to Enterprise to avoid stage 2 and 3, so in a way she was looking for the loophoole.
BTW, because this is the pon farr thread, stage 2 and 3 would problably by intensified by pon farr.
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Re: The pon farr thread

Postby Kevin Thomas Riley » Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:52 pm

^ Since mind-melding are frowned upon in the ENT era, I don't think telepathic bonding (what you call katra-bonding) was officially recognized by Vulcan society then. Also, the betrothal ceremony (often, but not always, made in childhood) most likely did not involve any mind-linking. That will change however, after the discovery of the Kir'Shara, and things are different in Spock's time.

My view is that originally Vulcans had the betrothal mind-link and the telepathic bonding (hence the one year-rule). But after a while Vulcan society got corrupted and for whatever reason these practices stopped. What remained were the rituals (the betrothal, the one year living together, the finger-touching etc.) but without the telepathic ingredients.

Still, even during this time telepathic bondings did occur (it's Vulcan nature after all), which is why T'Pol said "There's a long-held belief that when a Vulcan mates, there's a shared psychic bond." So there are rumours, but it's not officially condoned. T'Les said that she grew to care for her husband after a while, so I take it that they did form a Bond but never talked about it openly.

And when T'Pol realized she had formed a mind link with Trip, she knew that these old rumours were true, and somehow even worked with a member of another species. From season 3 she had the equivalent of the one year-living together with Trip as they grew progessively intimate and fell in love.
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Re: The pon farr thread

Postby panyasan » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:03 pm

I really like your explanation, KTR! I want to add to in my opinion the bond and the katra-bond is a bit more then a telepathic connection.
It's more growing together closer, learning each other katra's so to speak.
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Re: The pon farr thread

Postby Asso » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:44 pm

Kevin Thomas Riley wrote:^ Since mind-melding are frowned upon in the ENT era, I don't think telepathic bonding (what you call katra-bonding) was officially recognized by Vulcan society then. Also, the betrothal ceremony (often, but not always, made in childhood) most likely did not involve any mind-linking. That will change however, after the discovery of the Kir'Shara, and things are different in Spock's time.

My view is that originally Vulcans had the betrothal mind-link and the telepathic bonding (hence the one year-rule). But after a while Vulcan society got corrupted and for whatever reason these practices stopped. What remained were the rituals (the betrothal, the one year living together, the finger-touching etc.) but without the telepathic ingredients.

Still, even during this time telepathic bondings did occur (it's Vulcan nature after all), which is why T'Pol said "There's a long-held belief that when a Vulcan mates, there's a shared psychic bond." So there are rumours, but it's not officially condoned. T'Les said that she grew to care for her husband after a while, so I take it that they did form a Bond but never talked about it openly.

And when T'Pol realized she had formed a mind link with Trip, she knew that these old rumours were true, and somehow even worked with a member of another species. From season 3 she had the equivalent of the one year-living together with Trip as they grew progessively intimate and fell in love.

Logical and perfect!
That means (and I like this idea) that Vulcans are not so logical, after all.
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Re: The pon farr thread

Postby Aquarius » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:17 am

panyasan wrote:I really like your explanation, KTR! I want to add to in my opinion the bond and the katra-bond is a bit more then a telepathic connection.
It's more growing together closer, learning each other katra's so to speak.


Perhaps this is the reason one of the translations for "t'hy'la" is "soul mate"--not in the dorky cliche sense, but to mean a couple who is literally mated at the katra. I know, the most common translation is something like "best friend," but meanings of words evolve over time; as telepathic contact fell out of favor in Vulcan society, perhaps the "soul mate" definition likewise got buried.

One question I thought about (not related to katra-bonds) is if there's any info on how long exactly a pon farr lasts? I don't mean the Blood Fever; I mean the time in which they consummate the drive. Like, is it like us where you do it and then it's over--our Vulcan couple gradually returns to normal after the deed is done and it only takes once? Or is it as some of the profic authors have imagined in that it can take several days? I think Tuvok is the only one we've seen make it that far, and I don't remember exactly how long he was in that holodeck...
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Re: The pon farr thread

Postby Kevin Thomas Riley » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:18 am

Aquarius wrote:One question I thought about (not related to katra-bonds) is if there's any info on how long exactly a pon farr lasts?

Well, it seemed to get over pretty quickly for Spock in Amok Time once he thought he'd killed the Captain. So at least in the "challenge" alternative it ceases once the fighting is done. I don't know why the "marriage" alternative should be any different.
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Re: The pon farr thread

Postby Aquarius » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:31 am

I'm not sure how good of an example Spock is in that instance, being that he's half human so his biology might be a little bit affected by that. Also I think it was Spock himself who surmised that it was his grief and remorse over having "killed" Kirk more than anything that had burned the Fever out, so he lost interest in the skank. I could be wrong, but I sort of had the impression that we were supposed to file that one under "results not typical." That's why I was so interested in the Tuvok angle, because even though it was a holographic surrogate instead of his wife, it was the closest to "normal" we've seen, as far as that goes.
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Re: The pon farr thread

Postby Kevin Thomas Riley » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:47 am

We also have Vorik and B'Elanna fighting it out. After knocking themselves senseless they were both cured from their "affliction".
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