Expectations for T'Pol

[WarpGirl]

Don't feel bad I might not be "getting it" due to my own slow brain. Maybe if you typed it in Italian I'd get it. I can read a little, I just can't write it speak it. I'm weird that way I can do the same with French Spanish and a little German.

[Asso]

Thanks, I'm honoured, but I think it would be unfair that I write in Italian, here.
This one is a English Forum, I have to endeavour to make people understand me.
So, first at all, I simply tried to display to you that I love T'Pol because she's T'Pol. The strong and still breakable T'Pol. The logical and emotional T'Pol. The cold and warm T'Pol.
I could go on, but I think that's enough.
I found T'Pol really true, a true woman, or - maybe better - a personage finally well rounded, complete.
Now, obviously I'm influenced by my temper, by my perception way. But...
I always found Vulcans - how can I say? - "forced". In the beginning, Spock was simply controlled and logical, then - little by little - we began to see a strange race, a race which attempts to suppress (Attention, please! SUPPRESS, NOT CONTROL!) emotions.
At this point I began to be annoyed. That's stupid and impossible. Why? Well, emotions are the spring which pushes races to go ahead.
But - you can say - we are speaking of an alien race, of Vulcans, not of Humans.
And, at this point, there's the rub!
Physically Vulcans are absolutely like Humans. The pointed ears are nothing, from the evolutionary point of view. In other words, they have to be like us, in regard to everything, except for some negligible differences due to their evolving on a different world. And - pay attention again, please - some PHYSICAL negligible differences.
Basically they are Humans. Yes. I don't joke. It's couldn't be different, unless they look differently, namely NOT HUMANS.
Now, I think, if I was capable of expressing correctly myself, you can take all consequences.

[WarpGirl]

You see I've always thought that the supposed differences between human and Vulcan views on emotions were actually misunderstandings because of their language differences. When Vulcans say "We do not experience emotions," what they really mean is We do not experience emotions in the SAME way humans do." For them the word Suppression means the same as our word CONTROL! If Vulcans truly didn't experience emotions they wouldn't need suppression or logic. Basically I think the whole thing is a huge mistranslation. We know Vulcans do feel, even the proper ones. Sarek and Spock openly had love and affection for many people. Tuvok loved his wife and children very deeply. Vulcans have a sense of right and wrong, a sense of justice, they even display compassion. They just express themselves in a different way.

If you think about it humans express themselves differently around the world. In some parts of Asia kissing is considered vulgar, in some places you kiss total strangers as a sign of respect. My problem with T'Pol is that they wrote her expressing her emotions in a way that was contrary to her heritage and even her physiology. The Vulcan brain is not designed to process emotions in the way a human brain is. Without mental discipline a Vulcan's emotions become all consuming. Not a good thing, imagine a human who couldn't control himself, well what do you get? Mass-murderers and other imbalanced dangerous people. Vulcans need control without it they are dangerous and it ends up killing them. Look at all the health problems T'Pol has because she tried to feel things the "human way." Was any of it necessary to make her character more compelling? I don't think so, talk about gratuitous angst.

[Asso]

And again. I don't know how I have to do, so that I can be understood.
The fact is that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to feel emotions differently from us , for Vulcans. They share our physical body, so they share our mind mechanism.
They can be more private, they can see things from some other point of view, but it is out from reality that they can be different from us.
Otherwise they would look DIFFERENT. NOT AS THEY LOOK.

[Aquarius]

I'm sorry but it doesn't excuse the drug stuff.

When you think about it, though, is anybody's drug issue really excusable?

And what annoyed me about T'Pol's development was that she was constantly assimilating into humanity. She wasn't just coexisting and learning, she was adopting the same outlooks and attitudes as those around her. While this is typical of human nature, it doesn't fit because she is not human.

I understand the things you're saying, I really do. I just don't see it as being all that bad. I imagine that, before her assignment to Enterprise, T'Pol would have done all the things that were expected of her as a Vulcan, but somewhere inside, maybe for her whole life, she might've been looking around herself and thinking "Oh crap, is this really all there is?"--only more Vulcanly, natch. If she was completely content with her Vulcan-ness, I suspect she would've bailed after her six weeks were up and gone home and married Koss like a good girl. The fact that she didn't right there tells me she's got something of a defiant streak--qualifying this again by saying for a Vulcan. I don't think this is completely a case of T'Pol just "going native," since the point of many of the episodes were not only how the humans around T'Pol were changing her, but also how she was affecting them. I don't see it quite so one-sided.

[WarpGirl]

My whacked-out family is full of addicts of almost every vice, no there are no excuses for them or anyone else. And I agree that T'Pol is very different from the cookie-cutter Vulcans we were treated to on Enterprise. I have no problem with that, my problem is that they took it WAY too far. Like I said I don't have a problem with her expressing her emotions. I object to how she did it.

[Asso]

I thought I have to clarify a bit.
Star Trek is made with some scientific intention and/or attempt.
So, making Vulcan aspect so much Human-like and claiming they have to be NOT HUMAN is a nonsense.
Now, everyone is free to judge things the way he want to do, but - I love Star Trek also because it wants to be a little bit "logical" and scientific - I think we should cease to think Vulcans are different from Humans. Sure, not more than Russians are different from Americans.
And if you want to know something else, please look at this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution

[JadziaKathryn]

And again. I don't know how I have to do, so that I can be understood.
The fact is that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to feel emotions differently from us , for Vulcans. They share our physical body, so they share our mind mechanism.
They can be more private, they can see things from some other point of view, but it is out from reality that they can be different from us.
Otherwise they would look DIFFERENT. NOT AS THEY LOOK.

I respectfully disagree, because I think that Vulcans do experience emotion differently. It doesn't have to be a sea change. Some of it may be expression, maybe even most of it, but I think there is something fundamental about Vulcans that makes it so emotions are are sort of all-or-nothing. Either you control them, or they control you - it's not as much of a back-and-forth as with humans. The Vulcan brain is very different, after all (ref. the Doctor's speech in VOY "Riddles").

Sometimes I think it's easier for us to humanize Vulcans, if you will, to try and make their view of emotions our own. To an extent we have to, because we are humans trying to write something alien. But having Vulcans hardwired differently makes a great deal of sense to me.

[WarpGirl]

This is what I was trying to say. Vulcans are not wired to express their emotions like humans do. I don't have a problem with T'Pol expressing emotions. Vulcans do it all of the time, Sarek in "Search for Spock" was emotional in a "Vulcan Way" as was Tuvok on many many occasions. My problem is that if Vulcans were following corrupt teachings, then this should have been hinted at from day 1. Not thrown in at season 4 when all the damage was done. People forget that the only time Vulcans "become emotional" is when they are dying because of brain disorders. And they gave T'Pol not one but two! I understand about Tolaris, I actually like that episode. But Trellium NO! For me that was just a disgrace to all Vulcans. But you know what I'll bet if T'Pol had been a S'Vin it wouldn't have happened. And yes that is me crying sexism, but in fairness it's much much worse in other Sci-Fi. So I'll deal with it.

[Asso]

And again. I don't know how I have to do, so that I can be understood.
The fact is that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to feel emotions differently from us , for Vulcans. They share our physical body, so they share our mind mechanism.
They can be more private, they can see things from some other point of view, but it is out from reality that they can be different from us.
Otherwise they would look DIFFERENT. NOT AS THEY LOOK.

I respectfully disagree, because I think that Vulcans do experience emotion differently. It doesn't have to be a sea change. Some of it may be expression, maybe even most of it, but I think there is something fundamental about Vulcans that makes it so emotions are are sort of all-or-nothing. Either you control them, or they control you - it's not as much of a back-and-forth as with humans. The Vulcan brain is very different, after all (ref. the Doctor's speech in VOY "Riddles").

Sometimes I think it's easier for us to humanize Vulcans, if you will, to try and make their view of emotions our own. To an extent we have to, because we are humans trying to write something alien. But having Vulcans hardwired differently makes a great deal of sense to me.

That "respectfully" worries me a little bit : you know, it's a term often employed when you address to an "old person".
Anyway, I understand perfectly your point of view, and, actually, that's what we saw on the show. This doesn't bother me, I can live placidly with these issues.
Simply, I want to underline that a mistake has been took. If you want to display people who feel differently, you have to display them VERY differently, because there're some natural laws.
But I'm merely arguing, nothing else.
Obviously, from my reasonings I take the consequence that for me T'pol doesn't behave so strangely, but this my personal opinion.
Well, maybe I'm reasoning with my heart, rather than with my mind, I admit.
And then (now don't skin me, please), could it matter something that T'Pol is a female?

[WarpGirl]

Oh I'm not going into a rant about sexism here. I'm too new for that and I don't need to be evicted. I'll just agree to disagree. In any case T'Pol has a lot of qualities I admire. Obviously since I am here. Her personality in general is lovely, and I love that she has a wicked sense of humor just like Spock.