Rajin & Similitude

[Asso]

What is it that women are favoring here, Asso? Pon farr? Hell no, but it's there in canon, so you have to deal with it if you're going to be canon-friendly. Kalifee is extremely barbaric. I can't believe a logical society has such a thing. Again, canon.

Excuse me, Alelou, but Canon doesn't mean I have to deal with nonsenses.
Honestly, I think it's better to ignore this genre of Canon, and to use it only in order to write nice fics.
I know that maybe I can sound slightly bitter, but I perceive a not right propensity to justify everything with "Canon".
Writing fics is one thing, they are tales, somehow. But that doesn't mean that I can't express what I think of nonsenses.

[WarpGirl]

Hey ASSO That isn't what you told me look...

Normally I prefer the stories which take their steps from the canon, maybe attempting to set it, someway. I think it is too easy, perhaps, to ignore it, reaching some outcomes in spite of it. But this doesn't mean I don't share some of your ideas about canon, and especially about Archer and about "The Abomination". Well! "The Abomination" is not canon, obviously, it's only a sort of nightmare with which bad people wanted to put to the test all of us.

So you don't like Pon Farr which is fine, but you can't ignore it you said so! Besides I have to be nice to Archer which is so much worse!

[Asso]

You're right, WarpGirl.
I was ambiguous.
I wanted to mean that I would like to use Canon in order to adjust it, if possible, when it sounds to me a nonsense.
Basically I think we have to deal with Canon, but we shouldn't take it as Gospel truth.

[WarpGirl]

I agree unfortunately the definition of canon for a fictional universe IS the "gospel truth" for that fandom.

[Alelou]

Kal'i'fee isn't anymore sexist to Vulcans, then engagement rings are to us. I mean let's face it an engagement ring is a modern "bride gift." Something to prove a man can pay for his bride. Yes we've adapted it to be a romantic gesture of love and devotion, but when it comes down to it as a society the more expensive or grandious the ring is the "better" the man is that provides it. Kal'i'fee is NOT the actual marriage. Kal'i'fee is the challenge of a marriage! Women have it pretty good if you think about it. Not only do they have an option of getting out of the marriage, but they don't have to risk life-and-limb to do it. Men have a similiar option where women fight for them, although very rare. But those fights are not to the death. Women are actually protected and valued more than men when it comes to marriage.

I'm sorry, but I just can't equate an engagement ring, even if it is a tradition that hearkens back to a property arrangement, with a fight to the DEATH. Hello? The only way out of a marriage is to insist that either your fiance or your challenger must die? Must kill? You don't think that's barbaric?

Besides, engagement rings are not required. My mother never got one and they're about to celebrate 50 years of marriage.

I haven't seen anything about a female version of the challenge. Where does this appear in Star Trek?

[anaM]

Isn't the idea of Vulcan women becoming property of their husbands very illogical? Property means lack of free will and, in fact, being a slave. I had forgotten the use of this word and I hope it was just T'Pau using wrong English...

[Aquarius]

OH you just made my laugh Aquarius. I always say the only thing I need from a proposal is a "post it" note on a box of Keebler Grasshopper Cookies. Oh my grandmother was furious when I said this. So much so, that she said she wouldn't come to my wedding if I didn't have a ring! Hey I love jewelery most woman do, but I don't need a man to go into debt to put a ring on my finger, to prove he loves or is worthy of me. .

I told my mom that if I get married, I'm going to Vegas and having the Elvis impersonator do it. She asked about the reception. I'm like, "um....cookout and kegger in Grandma's back yard?"

[Alelou]

Isn't the idea of Vulcan women becoming property of their husbands very illogical? Property means lack of free will and, in fact, being a slave. I had forgotten the use of this word and I hope it was just T'Pau using wrong English...

Well, I still respectfully disagree with Aquarius and see this as something you hand over by virtue of invoking the Kalifee -- which frankly to me seems only fair, given what you're asking these guys to do. There ought to be some cost involved to taking a man's life.

It's all illogical, except that it does kind of fit back into the whole pon farr thing. When not being able to mate could cause you to die, then having fights to death to obtain your mate might make some sense -- though in a society this advanced, you'd think they'd have found some other way to deal with it by now. (Apparently they think this ritual is it.) Certainly in the animal kingdom, fighting over a mate or fighting to be the alpha male in a group (which allows you to mate with all the females) is extremely common. However, these don't actually tend to be fights to the death, just fights until the loser gives up and takes off.

Interestingly, in the primate world, it's quite often a far less dominant male who manages to go mate in the bushes with a female while the two would-be alpha males are going at it with each other -- sometimes this is even intentionally provoked by the female just to allow her that time in the bushes with the monkey she really likes...

[Aquarius]

Kal'i'fee isn't anymore sexist to Vulcans, then engagement rings are to us. I mean let's face it an engagement ring is a modern "bride gift." Something to prove a man can pay for his bride. Yes we've adapted it to be a romantic gesture of love and devotion, but when it comes down to it as a society the more expensive or grandious the ring is the "better" the man is that provides it. Kal'i'fee is NOT the actual marriage. Kal'i'fee is the challenge of a marriage! Women have it pretty good if you think about it. Not only do they have an option of getting out of the marriage, but they don't have to risk life-and-limb to do it. Men have a similiar option where women fight for them, although very rare. But those fights are not to the death. Women are actually protected and valued more than men when it comes to marriage.

I'm sorry, but I just can't equate an engagement ring, even if it is a tradition that hearkens back to a property arrangement, with a fight to the DEATH. Hello? The only way out of a marriage is to insist that either your fiance or your challenger must die? Must kill? You don't think that's barbaric?

Besides, engagement rings are not required. My mother never got one and they're about to celebrate 50 years of marriage.

I haven't seen anything about a female version of the challenge. Where does this appear in Star Trek?

The female challenge isn't canon, but if you look at the link I provided earlier and read the information about marriage rituals there's a part that talks about unbonded males. If an unbonded male is approaching pon farr, a bunch of unbonded women are rounded up. If he's not too far gone in the plak tow, he'll just pick one for himself. If he is, the family will pick. In the event that they can't decide or whatever, the women will decide the matter in combat, though it's not to the death.

Yes, fighting to the death is barbaric. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. But the way Spock and others have told it, Vulcans are closeted barbarians deep down, and only the suppression of emotions and a life dedicated to the pursuit of Surak's teachings keep it in check. Unfortunately, occasionally the beast has to be let out for a little air and exercise. In some ways I think it's suggested that this is how they remind themselves of where and what they come from, in case they get a little lazy about the logic thing.

[Linda]

Maybe T'Pau's ancient Vulcan suffers from translation into English. Was she speaking in Vulcan or English when she spoke to Kirk and McCoy as she supervised the ritual?

I always thought the "property" thing was mutual, that the male was just as much the female's property, because Vulcan marriage seems a highly exclusive relationship. Don't know where I got that idea or if I just thought it up myself, since I am always messing with Vulcan cultural details. But I have read so many novels (non-canon of course), that I don't remember where that idea is from even though I have notes written in the margins of all my "Vulcan" Star Trek novels.

[WarpGirl]

I'm sorry, but I just can't equate an engagement ring, even if it is a tradition that hearkens back to a property arrangement, with a fight to the DEATH. Hello? The only way out of a marriage is to insist that either your fiance or your challenger must die? Must kill? You don't think that's barbaric?

Besides, engagement rings are not required. My mother never got one and they're about to celebrate 50 years of marriage.

I haven't seen anything about a female version of the challenge. Where does this appear in Star Trek?

Yes, fighting to the death is barbaric. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. But the way Spock and others have told it, Vulcans are closeted barbarians deep down, and only the suppression of emotions and a life dedicated to the pursuit of Surak's teachings keep it in check. Unfortunately, occasionally the beast has to be let out for a little air and exercise. In some ways I think it's suggested that this is how they remind themselves of where and what they come from, in case they get a little lazy about the logic thing.

My point about engagement rings was the principle of it. Which is the same as the principle of Kali-fee just dressed up differently. Do I think a fight to the death is a good ritual no I don't. But it makes sense with Vulcan history. Aquarius is right the point it to remind Vulcans that they come from a barbaric violent past. Without logic their brains are wired to be violent and out of control. I don't have to endorse the idea of killing to see how it makes sense. Hey humans have fought to the death for women and insults for centuries it's called deulling. And eventually it was made illegal in the USA because it was insane. Besides after Surak I'm sure Kali-fee became very rare. So it isn't as if a marriages are still blood-baths. And Linda is right (although I can't remember the source) the "property thing IS mutual. So it's not as if the woman is a slave either metaphorically or legally. So no logic is harmed by this custom.

[anaM]

And Linda is right (although I can't remember the source) the "property thing IS mutual. So it's not as if the woman is a slave either metaphorically or legally. So no logic is harmed by this custom.

You must be right then and I feel better for all the Vulcan brides

[WarpGirl]

Yeah I can see how the term "property" can be a big deal for modern people of the western world. We're supposed to be above such things after all. The reality is that all our enlightenment is largely superficial. We still refer to people as MY Husband, MY Wife, MY Partner, or MY Significant Other. It's how we are hardwired, and I'm ok with that. As long as it doesn't negate my free will. Vulcan tradition doesn't negate free will, it's just not socially exceptable to our modern thinking. A Vulcan woman has the same rights regarding her marriage as a Vulcan man. So why should I object to an alien custom that was also a human custom not too long ago. Especially when those aliens share telepathic links to their mates. Yeah it makes a good case for "acceptable" possessiveness.

[Asso]

Unfortunately, if CANON has to be, I think all of you are a little too upbeat with regard to the term "property".
It's supposed to mean exactly what it means, because Authors had the strange idea that Vulcans were much more interesting if they were barbaric and advanced at same time.
Mhh... maybe T'Pol, under Trip's influence, could do a little revolution, who knows.

[WarpGirl]

I guess I don't see a need for a cultural revolution regarding Vulcan mating rituals. I don't think they are cruel or barbaric. Hey Klingons are much worse with their traditions, and nobody thinks anything of it.