Archer - Dweeb or Hero?

[Alelou]

Ditto, but I said I would hang up, didn't I?

A lot of stuff in wartime, we look back in horror and we think how could someone do that? How could we firebomb Dresden so badly that virtually everyone in the city suffocated who wasn't burned outright? For that matter, how could we drop the H-bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? My husband is totally appalled at me when I argue that for Truman and the generals it was simply the brutal math of that war -- the Japanese, even though they knew they were losing, were willing to spend every last one of their young men to fight to the bitter end, taking as many of our soldiers and ships with them as they could. Arguably, the bomb stopped the war dead and actually saved more lives on both sides than it destroyed. But those were mostly civilian casualties, you say, and the effects were horrifying and longlasting. Yes, absolutely. And why two bombs? By no moral standards that I know of can we look at that episode and comfortably decide that it was the right thing to do. But I also understand how someone might have decided to go ahead and do it anyway. And I won't pretend to be completely certain what I myself would decide in that situation, if I had had the responsibility of trying to bring that war to a close with as few casualties as possible.

I'm curious how you feel about "Hatchery." Archer had a point about those babies even if he was nutso at the time. Would Kirk and Picard have found a way to save all those baby insectoids? (I bet Picard would have.) Of course, in that episode they DID give them a little wiggle room, suggesting that they would probably be found by other Xindi.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

And why two bombs?

I think I read somewhere that the reasoning behind was that they wanted the Japanses to believe that they had more bombs. With just one bomb some Japanese generals might have thought that this was all the Americans had - that they only had have time to make one at that time. If I remember correctly they were almost right. After the test in New Mexico, the two bombs that were dropped where pretty much what they had.

But I digress... Back to Archer the Hero-Dweeb...

[WarpGirl]

This isn't really the place to debate history, so I'll leave that alone. No need for anyone to star a flame war. But with regard to "Hatchery" I have to say I respected "altered Archer's" position, although again his methods left A LOT to be desired. But it really has no baring on his character, he was under alien influence. Ultimately I thought Archer was immoral even before the Xindi. In "Cogenitor" he made it clear that he only interfered when other spieces failed to live up to his standards, not humane ones. I disagreed with Archer in "Detained" even though I thought the Suliban were being mistreated because in the end, freeing them made the situation worse, not better. Don't get me wrong an internment camp is one of the worst atrocities a society can come up with. But how did turning 89 people including children into hunted fugitaves help them? No Archer's morality is dubious and inconsistant at best.

[Alelou]

Cogenitor is such a painful episode to watch, though it's a fascinating SF premise. I think both that and Detained were interesting examples of how Starfleet had yet to develop a useful prime directive, with unfortunate results. And I like that they left things messy and morally ambiguous, which I know you hate.

But I agree, Archer is at his most unlikeable in Cogenitor, projecting all his embarrassment in the eyes of his new pal the alien captain and all his shared guilt about the cogenitor right onto Trip, who also didn't behave well (after all, he was lying and sneaking around in his little Harriet Tubman campaign there). It was kind of hard to believe they could come back the next week and just move on to the next episode without examining in any way what that must have done to their friendship and trust. There's a ton of follow-up fanfic devoted to that ep, actually, and understandably so.

I love that freeing those Suliban came back to bite Archer on the butt later, in Desert Crossing. Still, if I were one of those Suliban, I think I'd choose being a hunted renegade to being in one of those camps. That's not to say Archer made the right decision there, but I think he was certainly trying to. (Though being royally pissed off at the commander there probably influenced him more than he thinks.)

But I think this was one of the most interesting things about Enterprise, that they screwed up and made the kinds of mistakes that newbies in space might make. They were the first humans out there, after all. (Cue gazelle speech -- oh noooooooooo not that!!!)

[WarpGirl]

It's not that I hate messy or ambiguous. There are many times when that's what you get in life and ST. What I don't like is that Enterprise never followed up on the fact that humanity is striving to become better so that those things don't happen as often. Yes, this is newbies in space. Yes, the gazelle speech is there, (although bad writing and worse acting!) But the point is they're supposed to find the way to clarity and clean up their messes. None of that happened. Not for a lack of T'Pol trying, until she went native. The whole concept of ST begining with TOS isn't that humans don't make mistakes, but they DO fix them. Archer never even faced any real consequences! Nevermind clean up the messes he made. He liked blaming Vulcans and passing the buck to anyone but himself. He gotten good advice many, many, times. He CHOSE to ignore it. It wasn't as if he had no proper training, he didn't use it. All-in-all the only real value I've seen is that he's drinking buddies with the Andorians so that got him to help them sign a peace treaty with Vulcan. But Trip was the one who averted a war. I saw the "Vulcan arc" last night. It was actually pretty good, in places. But I like the fanfic better. But I haven't seen any evidence that makes me see Archer as a good leader.

PS Trip was very wrong in "Cogenator" but to be fair he didn't recieve any direct orders to stop what he was doing. And unlike Archer he learned from the mistake and NEVER repeated it. If I didn't think he should stay in Engineering, he would have made an AWSOME Captain he proved that in Kir'Shara.

[Asso]

Trip's mind is looking for truth and justice.
He makes mistakes, but he's searching for "IDEALS".
There's someone else in Enterprise who acts like this?
I can understand T'Pol.

[WarpGirl]

Good point ASSO. Archer is very set in his perceptions, Trip isn't (his initial prejudice against Vulcans aside) part of his reasons for being out in space when he could be in R&D is to experience new things and grow. Archer seemed to be out there mainly just to stick it to the VHC. Believe it or not I understand that, but it doesn't make a leader. I would have preferred A Captain like Jeffery Hunter's Pike, (I haven't seen the 'new' one so I'll let you know) I think a character like Archer might have made a good XO if they had to chart humanity's "growth."

[Asso]

I know I said I would hang up, but I'm weak.
So...
Archer is the man on the shoulders of whom the future Universe will grow.
And for him, Trip died, in the "Abomination".
And remember Daniel's words, when he leaves FOREVER our time and Enterprise.
Authors show this as perfectly clear.
Consequently, we have to think they believed it's absolutely right what Archer did, even the torture he gave harbinger.
Not the slighter doubt, I manage to find in the way Authors think of Archer.
Not Archer is wrong.
The Authors are wrong.
Nothing I am capable of finding in their thoughts and in their purposes different from a complete and upsetting bumptiousness.
Trip is not like this.
Probably he would have had to be counter alter (the fun counter alter) of Archer, the true hero, for the Authors.
But is it a greater hero the man who justified everything in order to achieve his aim (right or wrong, it doesn't matter), showing an only moment of doubt in "Home", or the man who chose to die for an "IDEAL"?

[WarpGirl]

But is it a greater hero the man who justified everything in order to achieve his aim (right or wrong, it doesn't matter), showing an only moment of doubt in "Home", or the man who chose to die for an "IDEAL"?

OK ASSO I have to admit I didn't get all of that, but this summs up my whole point!

[Asso]

I'm glad, WarpGirl.

[panyasan]

PS Trip was very wrong in "Cogenator" but to be fair he didn't recieve any direct orders to stop what he was doing. And unlike Archer he learned from the mistake and NEVER repeated it. If I didn't think he should stay in Engineering, he would have made an AWSOME Captain he proved that in Kir'Shara.

It's already been pointed out, but when I read this, I was thinking: "In what way was Trip acting very wrong?" Of course, he shouldn't sneak around, but look at his motive. He is seeing some one being uppressed and helping some one. He is showing kindness to some one, regardless if that person is goodlooking (see Archer reaction to Rajiin) or likeable. He helps a person that is seen as a second class citizen with hardly rights for her/his own. Trip is showing some human compassion here. Yes, you should always take into account that you can't change a culture and should respect a culture and be aware that your actions - even when you mean well -can have very different consequences in that culture. But does it mean you always have to turn a blind eye? For example, in many cultures women are seen as second class citizen and you can't change a thing about that, but you can help those women by giving them education and giving them means to slowly change their position themselves in their cultural context. And showing some interest and compassion never did hurt anyone.
Concerning Archer, I sometimes wonder what his motivations are. I don't think the cause always will justifies the means and also that revanche does play a part in his motivation. It would have been better if we had a episode where he faces his motivations and the question if the means justify the cause. We see some of this in Home, but the feeling of that episode was mostly that Archer was right, without reflection.

[WarpGirl]

I say Trip was wrong because he didn't listen to the advice he was given. Both Phlox and T'Pol tried to help him see that what he was doing could cause harm. And eventually it did. Although I draw the line at holding him responsible for the Congenitor's death, nothing he gave or taught it led to it's death. Archer's refusal did that. But Trip DID put a first contact in jepordy, if the Vissians had retaliated with force big trouble would have occured. In that respect he was wrong. Was Trip's motivations pure? Of course they were from a human point of view. But like T'Pol said those people weren't human. Trip didn't have enough information about the Congenitors or the Vissians before interfering. Yes he asked questions, but they might not have been the right ones. He didn't do anything "bad" but that doesn't mean bad things won't happen. Still I don't think you should blame him for a death, but bad judgement certainly. The point is HE LEARNED.

Archer, I agree with everything you've said.

[panyasan]

He didn't do anything "bad" but that doesn't mean bad things won't happen. Still I don't think you should blame him for a death, but bad judgement certainly. The point is HE LEARNED.

Thanks for clearing up your point and I do agree with you. I also think you can't blame Trip for her/his death, because ultimately it was her/his choice. The thing I do like about Trip is that he learned and matured.

[WarpGirl]

Glad to help. Trip isn't perfect his prejudice against Vulcans and his severe hate of the Xindi (although understandable) are flaws that he has to contend with. I think it makes him a better man. The thing with Archer is, he gets rewarded and his flaws are rationalized and he gets justification. I don't like that at all. Archer doesn grow. He just gets more powerful. Trip does grow, and he doesn't repeat his mistakes.

[Escriba]

I think what happens with Trip is that his prejudices against the Vulcans weren't real, in the sense of personal. He resents Vulcans mostly because Archer resents them. He doesn't have any serious problem against Vulcans, except maybe that they don't show him their engines (thois sounds awfull, I know.) When he meets T'Pol he's able to leave those prejudices aside and be how he really is: a curious, very social person.

Archer, on the other side... Well, he apparently doesn't stop hating Vulcans until "Home". But then we have *the_abomination*, where he treats T'Pol as dirt, for the old times shake, I guess.

And I'm with WarpGirl in the issue that Archer never seems to learn from his mistakes or suffer any consequence. Most irritating...