DO YOU LIKE SIM?

[Escriba]

But the only V'tosh ka'tur that actually practices mind-meld is Tolaris, we have absolutely no idea of how the Captain or Kov act. But I take your point.

[WarpGirl]

I assumed the V'tosh Kat'ur taught Tolaris mind-melding, or he could have been born with the ability and joined to escape persecution and taught them. Either way he tells T'Pol he's done it before. Needless to say he's probably infected at least several members with Pa'Nar syndrome.

[Aquarius]

This is where I'm getting hung up, though, so bear with me:

You asserted that the V'tosh Kat'ur have all kinds of problems, because they deviated from the norm. The only one we see any evidence of having a problem, though, is Tolaris, with his bad behavior and the fact he obviously has or carries Pa'nar syndrome because he gave it to T'Pol. The other dudes seem just fine. They were friendly, good-natured, and courteous. They gave no indication of being on a self-destruct path. In fact, one was even mending differences with his family, so it seems he's on a positive course. So I kind of beg to differ that they're in for all sorts of Very Bad Things just because they're doing things differently. Other than Tolaris, they're not hurting anyone, they're just trying to quietly do their thing and not be persecuted. "I'm okay, you're okay."

To further this notion, I contend that Tolaris's problems exist not because he's V'tosh Kat'ur, but because he's a jerk. We saw two examples of V'tosh Kat'ur who are not jerks, so I have a hard time with the inference that they're going to share Tolaris's problems.

And the other side of that coin: it's possible that Tolaris didn't start out as a jerk, but became a jerk because someone gave Pa'nar syndrome to him. Not that I necessarily believe this in my mental fanon, but I'm willing to entertain the possibility that maybe--MAYBE--he couldn't completely help himself because he was sick. But again, we don't know that this is a function of him being a V'tosh Kat'ur; we don't know who passed it on to him. For all we know it could've been a Syrranite.

I distinctly got the impression that the V'tosh Kat'ur were considered dangerous and reckless by mainstream Vulcans not because they really were, but because they challenged the status quo, and that's the LAST thing the government in power wants--for its people to think for themselves because people who think ask too many questions, and that's when you lose control of them. Look at our own history, it bears this out.

[WarpGirl]

OK I didn't say that the V'tosh Kat'ur were bad. I said that by going aganist the Vulcan brain's physiology bad things would happen to them PHYSICALLY. ie Pa'nar. Kov and the others might be suffering from the disease but they're not evil.

Tolaris is EVIL Pa'nar or not. Just like T'Pring is evil, and she's healthy.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Well, pa'nar isn't really a disease, as the Vulcan arc told us, even if the then Vulcan government tried to have their people believe that. It's a condition that can occur when someone doesn't meld properly with someone else. So Tolaris might not suffer pa'nar. He's just an untrained amateur (and a psycho rapist to boot) that melded with T'Pol and that caused her neural pathways to become damaged (until T'Pau eventually corrected them).

[WarpGirl]

But if it isn't corrected it will kill a Vulcan in time because the nuropathways and endocrine systems are screwed up. It might not be a "desease" in the fact that it's cased by germs or bacteria. And the way it's spread isn't organic, but it will erode control because it alters brain chemistry. Trellium does the same thing. So why did they need T'Pol to have both?

[Aquarius]

But if it isn't corrected it will kill a Vulcan in time because the nuropathways and endocrine systems are screwed up. It might not be a "desease" in the fact that it's cased by germs or bacteria. And the way it's spread isn't organic, but it will erode control because it alters brain chemistry. Trellium does the same thing. So why did they need T'Pol to have both?

My honest, gut-reaction answer? Because people don't relate to brain disorders causing a condition that would encourage the pursuit of romantic love. They equate that stuff with something like Tourrette's Syndrome or Alzheimer's. No one says "Thank goodness I had this brain disorder chomping away at my neural pathways in order for me to act on how I truly feel for you."

On the other hand, most of the general population can relate to the notion of someone taking drugs in order to have fun, whether or not they actually do drugs or drink alcohol themselves. Furthermore, the public also relates to the concept of someone taking a drug because they "need" it for this or that--the person who takes uppers so they can cram for exams or not fall asleep because they have to work midnights to make ends meet or whatever, for example--whether or not they've been caught in this particular trap themselves. The viewers at home can also relate to the notion of something starting out as fun, or being a "situational fix," and escalating into a shame-spiral downward.

It also takes away the "because I was sick" excuse, which is what it would be if relying solely on the Pa'nar syndrome. And I think that it's dramatically important that it's established that the feelings were there first, THEN the substance was introduced so she felt she could act on it. If relying on the syndrome as the plot device that catalyzes her relationship with Trip, then she'd never know if the feelings were real or a product of the disorder, and she has absolutely no control. With the drug method, T'Pol at least has control in the beginning, she knows what she's doing and why she's doing it--to get closer to Trip. And I think that's a very important distinction from a storytelling and character development perspective.

[WarpGirl]

Finally T'Pol's actions are wrong whether you believe they're appropriate or not. The fact is she hurt Trip. She didn't intend too, thats true. But in the end that doesn't matter. I believe intent establishes whether a person has good or bad character, T'Pol has excellent character, but that doesn't mean doesn't make her actions less wrong. Mistakes are meant to be forgiven.

I finally understand what you mean but see above.

[Aquarius]

Finally T'Pol's actions are wrong whether you believe they're appropriate or not. The fact is she hurt Trip. She didn't intend too, thats true. But in the end that doesn't matter. I believe intent establishes whether a person has good or bad character, T'Pol has excellent character, but that doesn't mean doesn't make her actions less wrong. Mistakes are meant to be forgiven.

I finally understand what you mean but see above.

Well, all I can say is, "You asked..."

And what you asked is a two-fold question. There's the perspective of the writer trying to figure out how to communicate an idea to an audience, and there's the perspective of assuming these characters are real and their actions are going to have real consequences.

I answered it from the writers' perspective, and the answer I gave relates to which option lends itself more to "audience identification"--a very important buzzphrase in the TV industry. At no point have I said drugs are good or right--I don't even take them myself, though I'll admit to drinking, sometimes a LOT about once or twice a year, but that's my choice, for me, and in no way reflects on what I think other people should do. I have, however, maintained that T'Pol's use of drugs and her motivations for doing so are understandable, which is important. If you have T'Pol react to Trip solely because of a brain disorder, then the implication is, you cure the disorder, you "cure" the love--it goes away. So when numbers like ratings (which lead to revenue dollars) are so important, you pick an option that "most people" will relate to. Furthermore, Star Trek has historically tackled big social issues from our own society, and drugs are still a pretty big one, so from that perspective I can also see why the Killer B's would go for it.

You're right, she hurt Trip, and that's not good. We're meant to sympathize with him here. I never meant to indicate that I think it's okay to hurt people emotionally--except from the perspective of fictional characters causing pain for each other for the sake of telling an interesting story. To be honest, I think most of us are here because they found something compelling about the push-pull nature of the TnT dynamic; in this instance she pulled him in--hard--and pushed him away--hard. It's part of the cycle, one of many obstacles they need to overcome. We want them to make it in spite of the obstacles--or maybe even because of them--and it's so frustrating because we at home know they could if they tried.

I don't think it was a mistake that she slept with him. From my perspective, her real mistake was pushing him away.

[WarpGirl]

I don't think it was a mistake that she slept with him. From my perspective, her real mistake was pushing him away.

One thing led to the other. Shw was completely unprepared for the consequences of her actions, because in her culture that is very rare. She had grown up expecting that her sexuality would depend on a committment of marriage and a mental bond. She knows that as a whole humans have no such expectations. She freaks because she has no idea what is going to happen after, and she can't handle all of the unexpected results. So what's the "safe" thing for her to do? DENY and REJECT.

I never said you felt drug abuse was acceptable behavior, but just because it's "understandable" (which it is, I agree) doesn't mean it should be condoned. She wasn't only hurting herself, or Trip. She was second in command on a Starship with 100 people and 1 dog, she owed them to be a compenent Commander. Worst of all it was a time of war, in a dangerous region of space.

Finally I don't think the blame rests entirely on T'Pol. Trip should have said no. He knew she was jealous, and he also knew that her culture hadn't prepared her for this level of intimacy, with anyone let alone a human man. If he was truly a good friend he would have put the breaks on.

[Asso]

Sorry, but all this is too cerebral, for me.
But, what do you want? If it weren't so for me, I would never have thought to write "Depths".

[Aquarius]

I don't think it was a mistake that she slept with him. From my perspective, her real mistake was pushing him away.

One thing led to the other. Shw was completely unprepared for the consequences of her actions, because in her culture that is very rare. She had grown up expecting that her sexuality would depend on a committment of marriage and a mental bond. She knows that as a whole humans have no such expectations. She freaks because she has no idea what is going to happen after, and she can't handle all of the unexpected results. So what's the "safe" thing for her to do? DENY and REJECT.

And I'm not arguing that. What I'm saying is, first look at the difference between the two situations: the coming on to him was very deliberate, premeditated. She wanted something and she went after it. There was nothing on under that robe for a reason.

By contrast, her behavior the morning after was very reactionary, likely born out of panic. If she'd given him a chance to give his side of it, yeah, they might've come to the conclusion that they'd jumped the gun a little bit, but it didn't have to be the end of the world, either, because obviously there was something between them. Otherwise she wouldn't have went after him and he wouldn't have gone willingly. My guess is that if they'd actually talked, instead of her shooting him down and evading all honesty, they may have slowed things down and explored what was happening, spending time together for things other than neurporessure and work, and adding the physical stuff later when each was more sure about it.

So that said, I view her rejection of him as a much bigger mistake than mustering her courage and going after what she wants. The latter is way more fixable than the former.

I never said you felt drug abuse was acceptable behavior, but just because it's "understandable" (which it is, I agree) doesn't mean it should be condoned. She wasn't only hurting herself, or Trip. She was second in command on a Starship with 100 people and 1 dog, she owed them to be a compenent Commander. Worst of all it was a time of war, in a dangerous region of space.

Right, but nobody's been condoning it. In a real-life situation you'd be absolutely right. But from a storytelling perspective, the fact that Trip got hurt and so many others had potential to be hurt ups the ante and makes for a compelling story. The crew is lucky that she was as functional of an addict as she was. And when it all really began to unravel, she at least got the help she needed.

Finally I don't think the blame rests entirely on T'Pol. Trip should have said no. He knew she was jealous, and he also knew that her culture hadn't prepared her for this level of intimacy, with anyone let alone a human man. If he was truly a good friend he would have put the breaks on.

And in a perfect world, you'd be right again. But there's this "heat of the moment" thing. Trip was jealous, too, because T'Pol had put the shoe on the other foot by bringing up Sim. So they're on equal ground there. In Trip's defense, the bond was probably already in the process of forming, between all the intimate tactile contact of neuropressure, and T'Pol's drug experiment leaving her emotionally open to it. We know that the bond will work to bring them together--hence the White Space encounters in Season Four when their relationship was in enough trouble that there was physical separation. So even though the bond is probably very new and very weak (to the tune that T'Pol was not even aware of it until they became separated a year later), it still follows that it would "encourage" each party to consummate the relationship. Rituals and texts and priests aren't calling the shots here, biology is. It's nothing nearly as dramatic as a plak tow, but it makes sense to me that if the bond was already in the process of forming, something inside would be compelling him to take what she was offering, whether he understood it or not.

That, and from a strictly human perspective, he was probably just delighted to know that she felt something for him, that the teasing and flirtation had gotten through to her after all, that she wanted him just as much as he wanted her. He probably isn't even aware enough of Vulcan marriage customs to know how much she'd ordinarily need that commitment of "forever" for a sexual encounter to not end up in a nuclear meltdown; all he knows is that she's no longer engaged so she's a free woman, and she's a consenting adult, and in all fairness, anything beyond that isn't his responsibility. She offered herself, he didn't come asking for it.

[Alelou]

I wouldn't be shocked if he did attempt to put the brakes on or at least switch into a lower gear.

Not that it would have worked.

[WarpGirl]

I agree with you both, all I am saying that it was a bad decision that led to a lot of unecessary heartache. But from my perspective the Cultural values were ignored, and it was a GIANT cliche!!!! The cliche is the WORST sin.