T'Pol's Un-Vulcan Like Behavior

[Silverbullet]

Sorry for the double Post.

What kind of Punishment could tolaris receive?

Since he had vulcan strength Archer would need Vulcan restraints and he could have got them from the Captain of the Vulcan ship.

ARcher could have held tolaris until a vulcan shp met the enterprise and took toaris into custody. He would have been tried by the Vulcans and since Mind Melds were then illegal on Vulcan he would be incarcerated.

Not sure that the Captain of the Rougue Vullcans ship would have done anything to punish tolaris and I get the idea he may have known that tolaris was a bit of a creep and might be doing thins he hadn't outer.

Peronaly I believe that Archer should have stunned tolaris and shoved him out of an airlock.

[WarpGirl]

Well I don't hate the V'tosh Ka'tur as a whole. I think they were good people for the most part. I find it unlikely that they knew Tolaris was a rapist. They seemed to admire ethics. Remember they don't reject Surak just interpit it differently. Surak believed that melding was a fundemental right to all Vulcans. Do I think they're playing the Vulcan equivilant of Russian Roulet? Yes. But that doesn't make them evil. I'm sure they would have found some way to punish Tolaris if Archer had done his job and told them.

BTW I don't see T'pol as UnVulcan for participating in a mind-meld, I see the VHC as UnVulcan for outlawing them and not treating pa'nar syndrome. They new how and surpressed the information. Even from the Vulcan medical community. Tolaris is just SCUM!

[Alelou]

If the syndrome could be cured by T'Pau with a mind meld, I don't see how it can possibly qualify as an infection. As pdsldl put it -- and T'Pau explained it -- it's a syndrome of symptoms caused by an untrained melder messing around in there. In other words, it's an injury. That infection model is a myth promulgated by the High Command. Tolaris just had rotten technique.

Tolaris is still a creep who was pushing himself into her brain when she said no and he didn't know what he was doing, and that's plenty bad enough. Of course, when T'Pol later melds with Hoshi, she's untrained too. But then Surak!Archer was there for that.

[WarpGirl]

Yeah but I'd like to think that she had studied the Kir'Shara enough to understand the proper techniques. You're right pa'nar isn't a disease it's an injury. But it's an injury that cuases disease like symptoms including screwing up the endocrine system, (where hormones are made) the synaptic pathways, (motor control, and cognative function,) and the immune system. Hello! That's a heck of a lot of damage, and she had it over three years.

[Alelou]

I'm not arguing that.

[WarpGirl]

Oh I didn't mean to imply you were. I was just expanding on your thought. Now if they had in someway incorperated this with the Trellium I would have thought it a good plot.

[Silverbullet]

Okay, can we agree that Tolaris was a dirtbag. That T-Pol was/injured/infected by tolaris.

that she had to live with this because she could get no help from the vulcan community.

That tolaris SHOULD have been punished.

[WarpGirl]

I did!

[pdsldl]

Okay, can we agree that Tolaris was a dirtbag. That T-Pol was/injured/infected by tolaris.

that she had to live with this because she could get no help from the vulcan community.

That tolaris SHOULD have been punished.

I agree with all of that. He should have been punished. Personally I think all rapist ought to be shot but it's not likely to happen no matter what time we're in.
My problem is that I don't see what kind of punishment would have been realistic and possible in outer space. I'd vote for pushing him out the airlock but don't see Archer or the V'tosh Ka'tur doing that. Locking him up why? What purpose would it serve besides making things more difficult for the V'Tosh Ka'tur to have a body using resources but not contributing. I think Archer and T'Pol took the only option open to them by just getting him away from her. He'd been on his ship for years so any damage he might have caused was already done and they could do nothing to prevent him from doing the same thing to anyone else. Besides most other Vulcans would most likely have stayed away from them to begin with. Archer was all for making friends with them because they were the first Vulcans that weren't condescending and disgusted by humans and encouraged T'Pol to be open and spend time with them.

[WarpGirl]

Thank you for bringing up Archer's roll in this mess. If he hadn't been pushing, and T'Pol hadn't been trying to fit into the crew better, she would have never associated with Tolaris to begin with. He might not have ordered her too but Archer did put pressure on her. Phlox was also encouraging but at least he offered a logical arguement. Archer just told her that she was being prejudiced. How the heck would Archer know anything about the consequences of the V'tosh Ka'tur philosophy? Vulcans are physiologically incapable of integrating their emotions in the same way Humans do. IT'S DANGEROUS and it could KILL not only them but anyone they flew into a paranoid homicidal rage on.

[Alelou]

Yes, and Archer understood that much better by the end of that episode. The man is not a complete idiot (well, at least not in my book).

Now on the other hand, we all liked Kov just fine. If she'd picked him to hang out with we'd all be happy campers but of course the episode would have been dull as dirt.

Archer didn't have any way of knowing this was going to happen, any more than T'Pol did, although she probably should have followed her first instincts. Unfortunately for T'Pol, her instincts also push her to explore, and she hates to back down from a challenge.

[Silverbullet]

Warpgirl, you got that right. Archer ordered T-Pol to mix with the Rougue vulcans even after she saiid she didn't trust them and was afraid of them. He insisted that she go on board their ship.

T-Pol was just following orders and she got burned for it.

Punishment? Give me a few minutes with him and I could think of some things that might make him reget his actions. but then I have this evil Streak whe it comes to his type.

[WarpGirl]

Archer is just enough of an idiot for me to hate him as a Captain. I just don't believe he should have pushed her the way he did. It sounded to me like he was saying, "If you don't give these people a chance you will prove everything I believe about conventional Vulcans true. This is NOT what T'Pol wants. So what is she supposed to do? Added to that she IS curious, and she does have her emotions close to the surface. It's an almost impossible situation.

[pdsldl]

Archer didn't know what the consequences could be for a Vulcan and he didn't push for more of an explanation. He did seem to understand at the end of the episode but it was too late then. Asking her to fraternize with the crew of Enterprise whom she had command over was one thing, encouraging someone to go against their belief system without all the facts is irresponsible for someone in a position of authority. And coercing her by inferring her refusal would have some effect on his opinion of her was a cheap shot.

[WarpGirl]

Great so we agree!