T'Pol's Un-Vulcan Like Behavior

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Warpgirl, have read first two chapters of your story.

Left brief comment.

Actually ths story is so good that words really did fail me.

[WarpGirl]

Thank you, Thank you, Please keep them coming and constructive criticism is ALWAYS welcome and needed.

Now back to T'Pol What I really DON'T like about ENT is that they deliberately made T'Pol assimilate human values. This is unfair, EVERYONE has their own unique identity that is helped shaped by their culture. T'Pol's heritage HELPED MADE HER WHO SHE IS! It formed the woman Trip fell in love with and the character we love. What right does anyone have to say she should abandon that heritage in order to fit in or love anyone! Thank God Trip didn't do this!

[Silverbullet]

I don't think that Trip asked or wanted T-Pol to abandon the fact that she was Vulcan.

But she was asking him to abandon the fact he was human by accepting her marrying Koss without prorest.

In the Vulcan cluture he had a right to let T-Pol know that he didn't want her to marry Koss and even to ask her to declare a Death Match even though he probably would be lucky to come out of it alive.

She blindsided him on the Plains of Fire. that was the last thng he expected to hear and he had every right to believe he was going to hear something else.

She knew Trip and knew his love for her would lead him to protect her no matter what it cost him. She took advantage of that.

She kissed him on the cheek before the ceremony that had to mean that she knew of his sacrifice and was grateful for it.

I still think that if t-Pol had been fair she would have discussed the matter with him and explained why she believed she had to do it.

He in turn could have given her reasons why she did not have to do it.

Also believe that Trip should have talked to Mother about the marriage and appealed to her logic and her love for T-Pol (if she readlly did "Love" T-Pol) By telling her that T-Pol would be far happier and bettter off with him than with Koss.

Doubt if Trip could have convinced Mother as she seemed determined that T-Pol marry Koss.

But trip should have tried, fought for T-Pol and let t-Pol kknow he was fighting for her even fighting to the Death with Koss.

Given that T-Pol might have told Koss that she would not mary him and told Mam that she was sorry but that she hadn't really done anything that Archer ws to blame for the thing at the monestary. that she and Trip was leaving vulcan and would return only when she was vindicated.

That is another thing. The Vulcan High command an the vulcan High council knew that Archer as commanding nOfficer had the responsibility for the destruction of the Monestary. Not t-Pol. Fact I believe that Soval once said that Archer was to blame.

Mom saying the Vulcan High Council had forced T-Les into retirement to get at T_pol was another lie. TVHC real Target had been T-Les all along but T-Les lied to T-Pol to make her feel guilty and to coerce heer into marrying Koss because of her guilt.

I never liked or trusted Mother from the Git Go.

The more I think of that Episode the more I think that the writers and the actress were trying to subtly show the Audience how lowdown Mother was without coming right out with it.

[WarpGirl]

You don't believe T'Pol had the right to not want to put Trip in the position of kill or be killed. It's PRESICELY because he is HUMAN that she wouldn't want him in that position. She KNOWS humans find her people's ways to be outdated to say it nicely. She also knows that as a HUMAN Trip would believe Killing Koss was wrong. Suppose she had asked Trip to be her champion, and suppose Trip won... Do you honestly think the relationship would have worked out? I don't think so. I think that in time Trip would've resented being put inthat position. He hadn't learned enough about her culture at that point. Like I said even IF T'Les lied the only way for T'Pol to get out of the wedding was to have Trip kill Koss. I really beileve that at that time, it would have totally destroyed the relationship.

And again T'Les has no say whether T'Pol's wedding is off or not KOSS' parents do. So Trip talking to T'Les does nothing.

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Warpgirl, you are looking at it from a womans viewpoint. As a male if I had just fought a duel to the death and won I would be leated as hell that I had won the woman I loved and had wiped out the other guy who thought he had that right.

I would expect that if the woman chose me as her champion she too would be elated that I won and would be glad to marry me. Why else woulld she declare a death match and chose me as her champion?

No, I don't believe it would harm their relationshp at all in fact make it stronger as they both had gone through a test of their love for each other and thier commitment to be with one another for the rest of their lives.

bother Trp? why. a fair fight for the woman he loves. Wouldn't bothr me at all and I doubtif it would bother Trip either.

A duel to the death is not a checkers match. It is serious someone could get killed.

When a woman asks a man to risk life and limb for her she is commiting herself to him. she damned sure isn't going to stiff him unless she is like that female in amok time who had
an agenda and a plan to get exactly what she wanted and what she wanted was not Spocl so she set it up that no matter the outcome she ended uup with the guy she reallly wanted.

With T-Pol ther would be no other guy just Trip and asking him to risk all was risking all of their future together and his life. the loss would be his life and her in marriage she would not want. that is a Hell of a risk.

so no, doubt very much if Trip would regreat it or t-Pol. If they won then they had a lifetime
together and probably a family. what is that against the life of Koss? or what is the life of Koss against that?

On EArth males have been fighting over females since the dawn of time. At first it was a natural method of selecton of the strongest and fittest. these days it is usually a drunken brawl.

The natural selection today is which man could provide the best and who would be the best and most faithfull husband and Father and that is not necessarily the caveman.

[WarpGirl]

You're right. Sorry I'm such a girl sometimes, but I can't change DNA. The problem is to most humans Koss is a jerk sure, but to kill someone just for that is considered murder. I can see Trip accepting it under different circumstances like if Koss was in Pon Farr, NO WAY is he going to let T'Pol be subjected to that when she already tried to get out, that would be rape. But Koss isn't in Pon Farr and T'Pol isn't in danger.

Anyway we should get back on topic, does anyone think T'Pol lies too easily? I like Spock's exaggerations better, I don't mind that the other Vulcans lie. Because the VHC is overrun with Rommies. But I don't like how easily T'Pol can lie. It's UnVulcan.

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Warpgirl, Trip woul not be killing oss because he was a jerk he woulld be killing Koss for the right to marry t-Pol. different thing altogether. that is what a death match is all about who gets to marry T-Pol. Koss or Trip and that would be decided by the death or surrender of one of them.

T-Pol Lie? NOt near as much as her mother does.

Cannot put my finger on many lies except for the whopper she told the morning after.
the other things were just emotional outbursts being vented because Trip was holding his heart out to her and she broke it again and was lashing out because of it.

[WarpGirl]

OK she lies in The Andorian Incedent calling Archer the "ship's steward" yeah I know duty, but she could have not given Archer ANY designation and just taken charge like SHE was the Captain. Instead she comes up with a bull story ANYONE would see through. She not only lies but she's bad at it, better to have her mislead and be GOOD at it like Spock is.

[pdsldl]

But for a Vulcan logic would say your duty is to protect your superior officer and lying to protect him would be acceptable. I could see Spock doing the same thing to protect Kirk.

[WarpGirl]

That was really just to illustrate how EASILY she does it. She lies about other thing too, that are not so logical. The point is it's too easy for her.

[Silverbullet]

Warpgirl, I hated the "Andorian Incident" for many reasons. Mostly because it was stupid and its premise was so faulty.

T-Pol saying that Archer was ships steward was too trransparent. the way that Archer stomped around it was obvious he was not a lowly steward and what in Hell would a steward be doing on the surface with the three ranking ships officers.

I have in my musings at night created a story where Trip was the central character and ARcher stayed on board as he was too stupid to want to see a "Pile of Rocks."

In my musing trip convinces Shran that he is a fool because Andorain intelligence would know that there was a listening post in the monestary just as it would know of all of the Vulcan lisetning posts all along thier common border and Vulcan Intelligence would know about andorian listening posts all along the border. So if Shran did something like destroyng the monestry he would either end up shot for stupidity or end up scrubbing deck plates on a garbage scow as the lowest ranking man in Andornia military.

The premise of the andorian incident was ideiotic. Archer was reallly stupid in it and Shran a complete idiot.

T-pol should have refused to hand over th scanner by saying she could not betray her species and Archer should have simply taken it and he handed it over to Shran.

The would take t-Pol off the hook.

I believe that there was a Vulcan young priest who witnessed the events and he would have known that Archer ordered T-Pol to hand over the scanner so he would be able to testify that she was innocent.

The later stuff of the Vulcans wringing their hands and saying "Oh Dear" at the destruction of their monestary was also dumb. they would have had to retaliate strongly and quickly to the destruction by taking out something equal in andorian territory.

Andorian incident was not one of my favorite episodes.

[WarpGirl]

I LOVE Shran so I think you're too harsh on him. Eeek I got the wrong episode anyway I meant Shadows Of P'Jem. I'm a moron sometimes.

[Silverbullet]

Hated that ne even more.

I will bet that Bakkula loved those scenes where he was tied up with Jolene. I wonder how many takes he ruined filming that. they were really tied up tight together and he had her breasts in his face.

Again it was another helping of super Archer although t-Pol did get a little heroric at the end by stepping in fron of a phaser blast .

Trip, of course came out not looking too good but that was par for the course in Enterprise.

[WarpGirl]

Well Trip did get his due by season 3 and 4. Well... More often anyway. I LOVE all the Shran episodes simply because of Shran. *the_abomination* ruined him though, and THAT made me more mad than the TnT disaster because well I already knew about that. I didn't know they were going to rip my sexy blue-skin to shreds!

Another thing that annoyed me about T'Pol, and this isn't really T'Pol just stupid writers, was the whole doubting Thomas routine in the Vulcan Arc. There are no such things as katras my fanny! Katras have been part of the Vulcan belief system since before Surak! Yeah have her distrust the Syrannites, but don't have her ignorent about her own culture and history. Not even the VHC get rid of that.

[Silverbullet]

Shran could have een a really great character. Hated that Episode where super Archer defeats him with the Ice axe that Shran grew up with and Archer had never even hel ld in his hand.

also hated the killling of the vulcan woman so we could have that heroic Archer defeat of Shran.

Shran was played so well by coombs and it was all but wasted.

That was one of my biggest gripes about Enterprise, everything had to take a back seat to Super Archer.

Had there been a whole lot less of Archer and a whole lot more of characters like Shran, Hohsi, Reed, Travis not to mention Tnt Enterprise probably would have had its seven or eight seasons. Perhaps more.

The lone Hero series killed Enterprsie in my mind.

Shran was great.