If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

[Rigil Kent]

That's not what I'm talking about. In Breaking the Ice, T'Pol received a communique from Koss' parents that state "Home. Now. Or the wedding's off." Specifically:

T'POL: Then you know that unless I leave Enterprise immediately, my wedding plans will be cancelled.
TUCKER: Have you talked to?
T'POL: Koss.
TUCKER: Have you talked to Koss about all this?
T'POL: We haven't spoken in many years. Marriages on Vulcan are arranged during childhood. I've only met Koss four times.
TUCKER: How can you be in love with a guy you've only met four times?
T'POL: It's assumed that we'd eventually develop an affection for one another.
TUCKER: So his parents send you an ultimatum? He doesn't have a say?
T'POL: His parents planned the union. It's their decision.

Emphasis mine. Note the word "cancelled." Not postponed, but cancelled. Given the fact that we know Vulcan males go through pon farr every seven years, it's absurd to believe that they didn't immediately arrange another marriage for him.

Not to mention, what does Koss' family get out this? Not a fraking thing. He's married to a disgraced woman (the whole P'Jemm thing that was Archer's doing, not her's), who clearly prefers the company of humans (including a human male who anyone with eyes can see she is intimately involved with) as she has resigned her prestigious position in the VSD to join that silly human organization Starfleet, and whose mother is under investigation for having links to the Syrannites. That doesn't restore any sort of "honor" or crap like that for Koss' family. It links them to troublemakers (since evidently, there's a troublemaker gene in the line descended from T'Mir).

That's what I'm talking about. It was an absurd plot twist clearly intended to add "angst" to a relationship that already had enough built-in angst ... and a subplot that went absolutely nowhere.

[blacknblue]

Reconciling this is the reason that I wrote Father To The Man.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

The part about "wedding plans will be cancelled" could presumably be retconned into meaning "the wedding ceremony which we have planned in X number of weeks will be cancelled, but the betrothal (i.e. the obligation by T'Pol to marrry Koss at some point) is not." I know it's a strech but that's the hand we're dealt.

As for Koss in pon farr, well, presumably Vulcans want to avoid the mess of having a marriage during a pon farr. Better to have it out of the cycle, then let the husband and wife get to know each other (the one year together part) and then when pon farr sets in, they've been a couple for some time.

Following this, Koss probably wasn't in pon farr, or even near it, in BTI. He wasn't near it in Home either, and since it's only 3-4 years between BTI and Home, that could mean that his pon farr was still a couple of years off in the future.

[Elessar]

I just jumped into this argument, I'm not going to really take a side and argue the points because, like I think Rigil was referring to, we already did this in the comments section of my story on HoT .... I can't even remember what it was called now! Anyway, oh well, can't do a shameless plug

But I WILL say, I just thought of a good example of a similar matchup. Rigil you probably haven't gotten to it yet because I think it's in like Season 6, but Sisko is a big, strong guy in good condition. There's an episode where he talks about how he was a wrestler at Starfleet Academy, and a damn good one. He challenged Solok, a Vulcan, to a match after a few drinks (given, he was probably handicapped some by that) but Solok whomped him. Dax was like "Vulcans are 3 times stronger than humans!" chiding him for being so stupid, and he's like, "And DAMN are they fast, too" like thinking back.

I just think it's a canonical example of a similar matchup. Two heatlhy, strong, physically trained males. And Sisko, being abotu 20 at the time, was probably more in his prime that Trip is at 35. He's in good shape, sure. But he's not 20.

Needless to say, I think Trip would have a small chance. But he thinks intuitively and innovatively. If Trip were to win, my position is just that it wouldn't be through strength. It'd be through deception or cunning, he'd just need his strength to at least survive long enough to find an opportune moment for something unexpected.

It could be done. But I think with <10% probability.

I'm probably going to get hanged for this , but I think Malcolm would stand a damn good chance. Especially if he were in the kind of shape he was in in the Expanse, fighting with Major Hayes in Harbinger. A lot of it too is that Malcolm has shown to me that he has killer instinct. Given, Trip would have every fiber in his body ready to take Koss' life in that fight because of what's at stake. But a one-time adrenaline rush of "kill-or-be-killed" mentality, even if it's genuinely consuming, isn't the same as a trained, hardened, tested sense of killer instinct. The practiced and unanxious ability to take a life without hesitation in a moment of opportunity.

But that'd be a matchup too.... Hayes and Koss!

[blacknblue]

I just jumped into this argument, I'm not going to really take a side and argue the points because, like I think Rigil was referring to, we already did this in the comments section of my story on HoT .... I can't even remember what it was called now! Anyway, oh well, can't do a shameless plug

But I WILL say, I just thought of a good example of a similar matchup. Rigil you probably haven't gotten to it yet because I think it's in like Season 6, but Sisko is a big, strong guy in good condition. There's an episode where he talks about how he was a wrestler at Starfleet Academy, and a damn good one. He challenged Solok, a Vulcan, to a match after a few drinks (given, he was probably handicapped some by that) but Solok whomped him. Dax was like "Vulcans are 3 times stronger than humans!" chiding him for being so stupid, and he's like, "And DAMN are they fast, too" like thinking back.

I just think it's a canonical example of a similar matchup. Two heatlhy, strong, physically trained males. And Sisko, being abotu 20 at the time, was probably more in his prime that Trip is at 35. He's in good shape, sure. But he's not 20.

Needless to say, I think Trip would have a small chance. But he thinks intuitively and innovatively. If Trip were to win, my position is just that it wouldn't be through strength. It'd be through deception or cunning, he'd just need his strength to at least survive long enough to find an opportune moment for something unexpected.

It could be done. But I think with <10% probability.

I'm probably going to get hanged for this , but I think Malcolm would stand a damn good chance. Especially if he were in the kind of shape he was in in the Expanse, fighting with Major Hayes in Harbinger. A lot of it too is that Malcolm has shown to me that he has killer instinct. Given, Trip would have every fiber in his body ready to take Koss' life in that fight because of what's at stake. But a one-time adrenaline rush of "kill-or-be-killed" mentality, even if it's genuinely consuming, isn't the same as a trained, hardened, tested sense of killer instinct. The practiced and unanxious ability to take a life without hesitation in a moment of opportunity.

But that'd be a matchup too.... Hayes and Koss!

The whole point illustrates why I think Trip would have a better than even chance. Koss is an architect, not any kind of fighter. That episode in DS9 just proves that Sisko didn't know how to wrestle. Besides, the kalifee is a battle with weapons, not a wrestling match.

But I agree, Malcolm would have an even better chance than Trip would. I suspect Malcolm could take the average Vulcan citizen without breaking a sweat. Trip would probably have to work up quite a copious amount of sweat. But I think he could do it. He maybe an engineer rather than a MACO or even a Security officer. But he is at least a trained SF officer. Plus he HAS fought for his life before, more than once. Does anyone doubt that themental aspect of a fight is the most important part of it? How much is it worth in a fight to know that you have done this before and survived?

[Elessar]

True, but there's the whole "a Vulcan is 3 times stronger and twice as fast" as a human thing that would be on your mind . It'd be like walking into the ring with Andre the Giant in terms of mentality.

I don't think the point was that Sisko was a shitty wrestler, I thought he made some point to brag about having been like a champion or something.

[blacknblue]

Well, yes. I imagine the Roman gladiators who fought lions and tigers in the arena made a point of allowing for the greater strength and speed of the critters they were fighting.

And please, I realize that fighting an animal is not the same as fighting a sapient being. But then again, there isn't that much difference. Once you start fighting with up close and personal methods, it all comes down to conditioned reflexes and instinct, along with a dose of low animal cunning. There just ain't time to do much in the way of complicated planning. Or thus it was during my rare episodes of physical conflict. All thinking worth mentioning took pace either before or after.

I keep trying to emphasize that strength is not the whole story. Speed is not the whole story either. There is agility to consider. There is flexibility. There is balance. There is the simple matter of practice and familiarity, which lets a person know what the right thing to do is automatically without needing to think about it. There is endurance, which is not the same thing as stamina. Pain tolerance matters. I understand that Vulcans are conditioned to lear4n mental disciplines that help them endure pain... when they have time to meditate and get into the right frame of mind. But how well do those disciplines work when you take a sudden hit and blood starts pouring gout of your face or arm or belly?

It takes a certain frame of mind to endure a sudden hit and keep moving. Trip would have been getting an extended term of training in exactly that kind of conditioning from his time in the Expanse. Week after week, he had to keep going and fight through the pain to keep the ENT from falling apart. He kept going in spite of sleep deprivation, grief, hunger, thirst, rage, sickness, wounds, and countless distractions. That kind of discipline is not something that Koss would be likely to have available to him, even if he does sit around in front of a candle and a stick of incense for an hour every day.

What I am saying is, Koss might be able to knock Trip down, but how easy would Koss find it to KEEP him down? And how well would Koss be able to keep taking hit after hit after hit and still continue soaking up the pain and damage? As well as Trip? There is the simple matter of courage to consider you know.

[aeverett]

It takes a certain frame of mind to endure a sudden hit and keep moving. Trip would have been getting an extended term of training in exactly that kind of conditioning from his time in the Expanse. Week after week, he had to keep going and fight through the pain to keep the ENT from falling apart. He kept going in spite of sleep deprivation, grief, hunger, thirst, rage, sickness, wounds, and countless distractions. That kind of discipline is not something that Koss would be likely to have available to him, even if he does sit around in front of a candle and a stick of incense for an hour every day.

Also, there is the MACO training Trip received. MACO training seemed to be about finding the advantage in a fight, getting in decisive blows while deflecting them from hitting you. All the throwing and such was about getting your opponent offguard and winded for the split second you'd need to win the fight.

While I'm sure Trip's SF fighting training was good, MACOs are a strike team. They train to keep things simple, to permanently end a fight as quickly as possible. To me this would an important advantage.

[Elessar]

I keep trying to emphasize that strength is not the whole story. Speed is not the whole story either. There is agility to consider. There is flexibility. There is balance. There is the simple matter of practice and familiarity, which lets a person know what the right thing to do is automatically without needing to think about it. There is endurance, which is not the same thing as stamina. Pain tolerance matters. I understand that Vulcans are conditioned to lear4n mental disciplines that help them endure pain... when they have time to meditate and get into the right frame of mind. But how well do those disciplines work when you take a sudden hit and blood starts pouring gout of your face or arm or belly?

It takes a certain frame of mind to endure a sudden hit and keep moving. Trip would have been getting an extended term of training in exactly that kind of conditioning from his time in the Expanse. Week after week, he had to keep going and fight through the pain to keep the ENT from falling apart. He kept going in spite of sleep deprivation, grief, hunger, thirst, rage, sickness, wounds, and countless distractions. That kind of discipline is not something that Koss would be likely to have available to him, even if he does sit around in front of a candle and a stick of incense for an hour every day.

What I am saying is, Koss might be able to knock Trip down, but how easy would Koss find it to KEEP him down? And how well would Koss be able to keep taking hit after hit after hit and still continue soaking up the pain and damage? As well as Trip? There is the simple matter of courage to consider you know.

I agree about strength not being the only thing to consider. But from what we know, Vulcans are also faster. I mean, the ability to throw a hard punch IS actually the ability to move fast anyway . But really what I'm saying is, those other things you're saying are all correct, it's just that I see Trip and Koss on a roughly even playing field in terms of the fact that neither are conditioned fighters. But that doesn't put them on an EVEN even playing field, it puts them on an even playing field in terms of experience. Trip may be used to having his life in danger, but it's a lot different to be enduring psychological and mental stress for months on end than it is to get hit by what feels like a Greyhound bus and then get up.

Tell you what I would have liked. Some reference to Trip having been a Golden Glove boxer, THEN i would I have loved it and I'd be singing a different tune!

Also, I think Vulcans' mental discipline is designed for situations exactly like a battle-to-the-death. I think Koss would keep his wits about him very well. And like you said, there IS something to be said about courage, but only for a human. Courage is the ability to keep going on in the face of what appears to be your death, and for a human that's the mechanism by which we oversome the emotion of fear. But a Vulcan gets around it a different way, so the question isn't does Trip have more courage than Koss, but can Trip's courage match Koss' trained discipline. I can't say I know the answer.

It takes a certain frame of mind to endure a sudden hit and keep moving. Trip would have been getting an extended term of training in exactly that kind of conditioning from his time in the Expanse. Week after week, he had to keep going and fight through the pain to keep the ENT from falling apart. He kept going in spite of sleep deprivation, grief, hunger, thirst, rage, sickness, wounds, and countless distractions. That kind of discipline is not something that Koss would be likely to have available to him, even if he does sit around in front of a candle and a stick of incense for an hour every day.

Also, there is the MACO training Trip received. MACO training seemed to be about finding the advantage in a fight, getting in decisive blows while deflecting them from hitting you. All the throwing and such was about getting your opponent offguard and winded for the split second you'd need to win the fight.

While I'm sure Trip's SF fighting training was good, MACOs are a strike team. They train to keep things simple, to permanently end a fight as quickly as possible. To me this would an important advantage.

I'd have to say that the only benefit I'd see Trip getting from this depends on how much time he has to prepare. In my story, "Stake Thy Claim", he doesn't have any time. Well, depending how you read the story, because he DOES say he figured ahead of time this is how it would go down. He might have prepared. But he couldn't have prepared a whole lot without T'Pol finding out.

The reason I don't think this training would be a big advantage is that anybody who's ever physically trained knows that you either use it or lose it. If he's been training consistently or like practicing to be a reserve security officer, sure. But just doing his daily routine for the last year since that happened, he wouldn't hold over any of the physical conditioning derived from that, and only minute amounts of knowledge about fighting technique. He could use that to go back and study up again, sure. But if he was thrown into a fight suddenly, he wouldn't have much advantage having learned that stuff a long time ago. Unless he just made a point to practice it, which we never saw.

Starting in Feb. I was running 6 days a week and got up to running 6 mile marathons 3 days and a 1 mile sprint the other 3. I got up to a 21:00 minute 3-mile run, preparing for the Marine Corps physical fitness test. I did that for about 7 weeks until I got sick and school got hectic, and I've been off the running bit for about 3-4 weeks. I've restarted again, and I can *barely* run a 7:30 single mile, but no way in hell can I reproduce that for 3 straight miles. So, you lose a lot of that if you don't continue to use it.

[Rigil Kent]

The reason I don't think this training would be a big advantage is that anybody who's ever physically trained knows that you either use it or lose it. If he's been training consistently or like practicing to be a reserve security officer, sure. But just doing his daily routine for the last year since that happened, he wouldn't hold over any of the physical conditioning derived from that, and only minute amounts of knowledge about fighting technique. He could use that to go back and study up again, sure. But if he was thrown into a fight suddenly, he wouldn't have much advantage having learned that stuff a long time ago. Unless he just made a point to practice it, which we never saw.

I have to point out that the exact same thing applies to Koss. If he's had physical training like this, it was probably before Trip was even born. He hasn't had to use it ... so it's that much more likely that he's forgotten everything he knows. In fact, he's at more of a disadvantage because it's been so long for him ...

Besides, the actor playing him doesn't have his name in the opening sequence, so there's no way he can win.

[pookha]

how many people have seen amok time to see what kind of effect the vulcan atmosphere can have.
that the air is thin isnt a joke. even before bones gave jim the shot kirk was huffing and panting.
and this was from fighting spock when spock was ill from the side effects of pon farr.
and just because koss was an architect dosnt mean he wasnt keeping up on whatever fighting skills he had in the past.

as for the whole breaking the ice thing yeah i think they just forgot that the weddding was actually canceled and not postponed.
and it would make sense if pon farr would happen in the time period of the year after the wedding . because after that the couple wasnt required to be together.

as to why all of a sudden the family of koss would want the wedding back..
for one thing tpol may no longer be in disgrace.
if it was known to the officials that the expanse posed a threat to vulcan she may have been seen as a hero now.
plus, she now has the trust and inside track to the humans who just proved far more resourceful then a lot of vulcans probably suspected.

it could have been the parents of koss never told him the truth and instead said tpol did postpone it.

the more i see home the more koss comes across as some one who really did care for tpol who may not have been aware of a lot of stuff.
and it was his parents who agreed to let tpol leave after the ceremony.
koss had wanted that year to try and win tpol over and if he didnt succeed then he was willing to let her go back into space.

if i was writing something i would have it to where in between home and kirshira koss learns a lot of hard truths and this is why he lets tpol go then.

as for the pon farr issue..

i still see koss as being younger then tpol. i still wonder if he was not her original intended mate.
that perhaps they died and koss was a replacement.
but then i also wonder if koss could have been part romulan but was unaware of it.

[Elessar]

The reason I don't think this training would be a big advantage is that anybody who's ever physically trained knows that you either use it or lose it. If he's been training consistently or like practicing to be a reserve security officer, sure. But just doing his daily routine for the last year since that happened, he wouldn't hold over any of the physical conditioning derived from that, and only minute amounts of knowledge about fighting technique. He could use that to go back and study up again, sure. But if he was thrown into a fight suddenly, he wouldn't have much advantage having learned that stuff a long time ago. Unless he just made a point to practice it, which we never saw.

I have to point out that the exact same thing applies to Koss. If he's had physical training like this, it was probably before Trip was even born. He hasn't had to use it ... so it's that much more likely that he's forgotten everything he knows. In fact, he's at more of a disadvantage because it's been so long for him ...

Besides, the actor playing him doesn't have his name in the opening sequence, so there's no way he can win.

Well except that we're all humans and muscle deterioration is a human thing, maybe it doesn't happen to Vulcans

[Rigil Kent]

Sigh. Well, since clearly Tucker can't do anything here (I guess someone changed the Vulcans to Kryptonians and forgot to tell me), I'll say nothing further. I mean, Archer was tossing around Vulcan commandos on their home planet, but this non-commando architect is going to look at Trip funny and Tucker will die.



ETA: Man ... the board is running slow on me tonight...

[pookha]

i agree with some of the others if trip used his wits and his fighting style was differerent enough..
but i am going on what i saw in amok time and nothing new.


meh they screwed kirshara up.

and a pet retcon theory is that the reason tpau didnt demand a vulcan examine jim is that she caught on to what bones was doing and approved.
maybe long ago she saw something similar..

[Elessar]

Sigh. Well, since clearly Tucker can't do anything here (I guess someone changed the Vulcans to Kryptonians and forgot to tell me), I'll say nothing further. I mean, Archer was tossing around Vulcan commandos on their home planet, but this non-commando architect is going to look at Trip funny and Tucker will die.



ETA: Man ... the board is running slow on me tonight...

let's overreact, chief. I'm just making light of the myriad unknowns obscuring this discussion from any rationailty .